Seiko 7A38 - by the numbers

Remember how I started off the first page / post of this thread ?

Thought this might make an interesting little separate topic for the Fashionista's and Francophiles amongst us.

Well if anybody else is interested and fancies doing a bit of research - I may just have unwittingly stumbled across another one. 

Personally, I can't say I'd ever heard of Francesco Smalto - but apparently they're a big French fashion brand and 'into watches'.

I'm going to keep this brief, because having spent hours researching the Fred Force 10 '7A38', I really can't be bothered right now.

Besides it's a 7A28 / N7 (V905) based watch - so of less interest to me personally.

Anyway, after I'd finally found that image of the Fred '7A38' in L'officiel Hommes issue Nº 75 of 1989, I kept going; looking through the rest of their 1989 archives - and purely by chance, in the very next issue (Nº 76), I came across this short article at the top of page 40:

http://patrimoine.editionsjalou.com/lofficiel-hommes-numero_76-page_40-detailp-22-1030-40.html

Zoom in on the photo and and although it's a bit pixellated I reckon it's a 7A28 (C.G.H. / Yema N7).

Now, I may be wrong and perhaps this post rightfully belongs in the Close Calls and Double Takes - but not the real deal thread.

But I don't think so. Following so closely on the heels of the Fred Force 10 7A38 is just too much of a coincidence in my book.

Somebody else is welcome to try and prove otherwise. You'll need to find a better photo of the watch in question to start with. 

Although most of the preceding two pages have been taken up by various member's observations about the YSL TD-780 re-branded Yema N7, readers may recall that I started off this thread by copying and pasting a couple of my posts from an old thread on RLT ....

About another 7A38-based 'French Fashion' watch, which was to all intents, a modified Kamatz 51xxxx (also produced by C.G.H.). 

Originally posted by myself on February 2, 2014 at 2:37 PM

Can't remember if I've mentioned the Loris Azzaro H900 before on our forum, but I distinctly remember a short thread I wrote on RLT.

Mostly from the tongue-in-cheek title I gave the topic: If Rolex made a 7A38 .....

My third post (of this thread) began ....

Seiko7A38 at February 2, 2014 at 10:48 AM

I must admit to some feelings of remorse, not having purchased that Loris Azzaro, but the French seller wouldn't budge on price. 

Needless to say, I've never seen another exactly like it since. 

I can't honestly say that the Loris Azzaro H900 ever approached anything like 'grail' status for me, but it was another of those few odd non-Seiko variants missing from my collection. So I kept looking - every now and then. I never did see another exactly like that one.

Two weeks ago, some 4 years after I'd seen that first (and only) H900, another example finally appeared on LeBonCoin.

http://www.leboncoin.fr/montres_bijoux/814506225.htm?ca=1_s

As you can see, there was no price specified, just 'Make (an) Offer'. Bearing in mind the ridiculous prices some French sellers appear to think these things are worth, I deliberately tried to stem my enthusiasm (it wasn't too difficult) and didn't so much as even attempt to make contact with the seller for a whole week. Given the watch's rarity factor, it was a gamble, I know. But I sat on my hands. 

A week later, presumably having received no other interest, he listed it on eBay, with an opening bid price of 100 Euros.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171821690630

Rare montre AZZARO chrono H 900 années 90.

Bon état. Fonctionne bien. Pile neuve changée le 3/06/15, mais joint d'étanchéité non fait.

Bracelet cuir bleu d'origine.

Usure courante.

Achat immédiat possible

Again, although the seller wrote 'Buy-it-Now possible', I resisted the temptation to enquire and didn't place a bid until after 3 days.

Just to be sure, I nailed it with a higher snipe 'safety bid' this morning. Thankfully, there were no other bidders besides myself. 

Going by the seller's eBay listing photos, generally, it appears to be in better condition than the example I passed on 4 years ago.

This one is on the original blue shark strap (they were very much in vogue in the early 90's - and blue was Loris Azzaro's favourite colour) although the strap is beginning to split, so I'll be replacing it with something better matching in black leather, in due course.

The case-back has the usual slipped tool marks, but I should hopefully be able to polish out the worst of them.

That's where this H900 differs slightly from the previous example. Remember I wrote: I never did see another exactly like that one.

Well I still haven't.  Note the different caseback markings:

The one I've bought is missing the text: OFFERT PAR LES PARFUMS (before LORIS AZZARO). Am I really bothered though ? 

The Loris Azzaro H900 arrived on Monday, though due to my having been extremely busy at work (hence the general lack of posts, lately), I was too tired to do anything with it until late Friday evening. As far as its general overall condition goes, the French seller's small-ish eBay listing photos served to flatter (rather than deceive) - but given the rarity factor and the price of 100 Euros I paid for it, I'm not disappointed - far from it. 

Although it wasn't apparent in his photos, the first thing I'd noticed was that the inside of the crystal looked foggy - a sign of possible moisture ingress or leakage of battery acid fumes, which prompted a slightly belated urgent strip down. Although the negative battery terminal had clearly been scraped clean of deposits (with a minimal loss of  gold plating) at some point and there was further evidence that it had been apart before (of more anon), thankfully I didn't find anything else untoward. 

It's interesting, in hindsight, to compare what I actually found with my observations on RLT four years ago (then based on photos) .

It's very obviously (to my eyes, at least), another 'parts bin special' from Yema (Compagnie Générale Horlogère). 

Apart from using their Shimauchi Ltd. V906 signed version of the movement .... 

The watch case is the same used on the Kamatz 51xxxx range (but fitted with a different rotating bezel), 

which, without any markings, removes the anomoly of the incorrectly marked rotation of the Kamatz bezel. 

The Tachymeter dial ring spacer appears to be exactly the same as used in a black-dialled Jaz N8YZ63, and 

the small diameter dial design bears a close family resemblance to some Yema models, Jaz and Kamatz 7A38's.

Some of the following photos were taken late on Friday (not quite midnight - that's just me centering the hands, for safety's sake before removing the dial / movement) - mostly by artificial light / flash, so please forgive the variable quality and odd bits of lint.

Nor are they necessarily in quite the same order as I took them - and most are 'after' shots, as I reassembled it. 

Probably the most disappointing thing for me were the slipped tool graunch marks on the highly polished case-back. Although a couple of them are quite deep, thankfully they just avoid the engraving. Granted, the removal tool notches on this style of case-back are very shallow, but what had caused the case-back to be so tight was someone had fitted an incorrect under-sized O-ring gasket at some point. Instead of sitting in the machined groove in the case, it was tight around the top of the threads and so had been chewed into them every time, almost like using plumber's PTFE tape. 

Oddly enough, the Kamatz 51xxxx's aren't - most I've seen are blank, as far as I can remember (you'll have to take my word for it). 

As I'd inferred in April 2011, from this view, you wouldn't know if you were looking at a Loris Azzaro H900 or a Kamatz 51xxxx ....

Here for comparison is an old photo of one of my Kamatz 518000's, taken back in November 2011 (with crown screwed home).

The subtle giveaway (which the more observant of you might spot) being the Kamatz's bezel quarter markers, just visible below:

The Loris Azzaro H900 dial / movement removed from the case, complete with Tachymeter ring still in situ:

It's not an easy thing to photograph (by artificial light) because the black dial paint is very glossy. Maybe this is a better shot.

Note how the stepped-in Tachymeter ring effectively reduces the (visible) dial diameter. Here's another shot with it removed.

The dial plate cut-outs and location drillings are exactly the same as a Kamatz 51xxxx. As indeed are the hour and minute hands ....

(but not the chronograph sweep seconds nor sub-dial hands). Oddly there's no FRANCE printed at the bottom of the dial. 

Note the slipped screwdriver mark near the bottom L.H. dial fixing screw. Fortunately it's hidden by the Tachymeter ring. 

Speaking of which ....

I was wrong about this bit: The Tachymeter dial ring spacer appears to be exactly the same as used in a black-dialled Jaz N8YZ63 ....

It's not. It may have the same gold printing (which was all I could see at the time), but the moulding used in the Loris Azzaro H900 is much deeper; its locating pips are in a different place and it's moulded in white plastic, sprayed gloss black, whereas the Jaz N8YZ63's is simply moulded in matt black plastic.

Here's the head, topside, cleaned and reassembled. Something that isn't readily apparent in my photos is the crystal that's fitted ....

I'd assumed because it was based on the Kamatz 51xxxx (using the same case), it would use the same flat 28.5mm allegedly 'sapphire' crystal. But No. The Loris Azzaro H900 uses a thick-ish double-domed Hesalite crystal. I haven't popped it out to measure it (I see no point in disturbing the seal), but I'm pretty sure it isn't the same as that used in the 38mm 'reduced' version of the Yema Spationaute III (which from memory is something like 29.5mm diameter).

It came fitted with the original Loris Azzaro signed blue shark strap, which was refreshingly still quite clean:

Unfortunately (as could be seen in the seller's photos) it was beginning to split at one end.

Although a 'de rigueur' blue shark is correct for the watch, I personally think it would look better on something in black patent leather, to match the gloss black dial, so on Friday, I tried it on a really cheap and nasty (6 for $5.99 on eBay) Stylo brand lizard grain strap.

Black patent leather is definitely the way to go, but the watch really deserves something of better quality.

This afternoon I did a quick superglue repair to the original Loris Azzaro blue shark strap and put it back on .... for the time being.

So, having finally secured an example of the Loris Azzaro H900 for my collection, why you might ask would anyone in their right mind consider purchasing another of these quirky-looking French fashion watches - of distinctly dubious desirability ? 

Answer: because there's more than one flavour of them.

As I trust I've already made clear, the Loris Azzaro is based on the Kamatz watch case. Two sizes of Kamatz were produced:

the normal 40mm sized 517000 / 518000 and 519000 models and a 'reduced' 36mm sized Ladies / Boy's model, the 507000.

There's a thread about the 507000 in the eBay section: Beware the Gender Bender - this is a Kamatz LADY's watch !

I gave it that salutary topic title to warn of eBay sellers who've tried to pass off these smaller versions as men's watches. 

Later in the thread, I posted this photo showning a size comparison between a Kamatz 517000 and the 'Lady's 507000.

(Photo courtesey 'Northdock' on SCWF)

The way to quickly recognise the smaller version of the Kamatz is that it doesn't have a separate Tachymeter ring; the scale is printed around the perimeter of the dial - and that the day / date windows extend well outside the reduced diameter sub-dials.

So when I saw this Loris Azzaro listed on eBay France a couple of days ago, I had to do a double take:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/162007534943

Chronographe vintage Loris Azzaro bicolore lunette tournante, couronne visé, jour et date, mouvement Shimauchi Ltd. Calibre V906 voir photo 2 ( il parait que ce serai un mouvement Seiko 7A38 ou le même que l ont peu trouver sur la yema spationaute 3 mais rien de sur je laisse cela aux connaisseurs) étanche a 100 m non garantie car a été ouverte ! Diamètre 3,6 cm environ ! La montre fonctionne ( non tester sur la duré ) mais la pile est a changer je ne sais pas si c'est du a la pile mais quand j enclanche le chrono ça fonctionne mais quand je l arrete l aiguille ne reviens pas a zéro ?? Quelques trace sur le verre mais rien d énorme ! Dernière l ont peu lire : all stainless steel water résistant 100m made un France et offert par les parfums loris azzaro ! Voilà que dire de plus je laisse le reste aux connaisseurs !!! La montre est vendue en l état n étant pas professionnel j'ai fait de mon mieux pour vous la décrire !! Vente uniquement en France !!! Bonne encheres.

Clearly this was a 'reduced' Loris Azzaro Lady's / Boy's version of their H900 - equivalent to / and based on the Kamatz 507000. 

So I messaged the seller asking if he was prepared to ship to the UK and whether there was a model number on the case-back.

There was: D900.

Been trying to think of some rationale behind this model nomenclature (versus the Kamatz 507000 / 517000 etc. numbering).

The simplistic logical answer I came up with is that H = Homme and D = Dame (Man and Lady in French). N'est ce pas ? 

By 7:30 this morning, bidding on the Loris Azzaro had stalled at 30 Euros:

I was planning to snipe it, but nothing too extravagant. I was expecting at least one other bidder to snipe it. Indeed they did*.

The eBay auction ended about 10 minutes ago, selling for 52 Euros after 9 bids:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/162007534943

*Looking at the losing bidder u***u bidding activity, which includes a number of items under Crafts > Beads, Pearls & Charms ....

I'd suspect they were quite possibly female. Désolé Madame. 

In hindsight, perhaps I should have let the other bidder win it - rare or not.  Received condition was rather disappointing. 

Case, bezel and crystal are all quite badly scratched in places and the 30 minute sub-dial has some plating discolouration.

Photo below is as it arrived yesterday, but no amount of cleaning and titivation is going to improve matters.

Thing is, should I have waited a few more years till another one surfaced ? 

One of the jobs I'd decided to tackle today was a strip and clean of the Loris Azzaro D900. Apart from being a bit scratched and knocked about, it was rather grubby, too. Unfortunately it's Easter bank holiday weekend, so typically the weather in the UK is crap - and hence a distinct lack of decent available natural light for watch photography. So please excuse the slightly grainy photos. 

Firstly here's a couple of side-by-side comparison shots:

The diminutive Lady's D900 alongside its full-sized Men's counterpart, the H900:

And alongside an almost mint / NOS example of the equivalent Lady's / Boy's Kamatz 507000 which spawned it:

Naturally I started the strip-down and clean by removing the dial / movement ....

But first another comparison with the H900, which itself has an effectively reduced diameter dial (in terms of viewable area) ....

Seiko7A38 at June 28, 2015 at 7:28 AM

Note how the stepped-in Tachymeter ring effectively reduces the (visible) dial diameter. Here's another shot with it removed.

Here's the effectively 'even smaller' diameter D900 dial.

Naturally lit:

Artificially lit:

A beautiful shade of deep azure blue - just as Loris Azzaro intended. Unfortuately the brighter lighting serves to highlight the tarnishing on the 30 minute sub-dial. Although the sub-dial sizes are further reduced, the outer limit of dial printing is similar to that of the H900. The difference being that in the D900 the Tachy(meter) scale is printed on the dial, rather than on a separate plastic moulding.

Why do you only get to see 23mm of the 31mm diameter dial in these Lady's / Boy's versions ? Simple - a bleedin' great case flange ! 

The rotating bezel would turn, with a light ratcheting action, but it was clear that it was partially clogged with muck, so I carefully pried it off using nothing more than my thumbnail. I was horrified to find what held it on so tenuously (and provided the detent) - scaled down versions of those extremely fragile black plastic ring inserts used on the 38mm 'reduced' Yema Spationaute III ! (See this thread ).

Similarly (as on the Loris Azzaro H900) the crystal fitted is a much scaled-down version of the lightly double-domed Hesalite crystal used on the Spationaute III, but only 24.0mm in diameter. I may try polishing out some of the lighter scuffs and scratches with 2000 grade Wet & Dry / Polywatch, tomorrow. But if acheiving any kind of improvement proves too much effort, I can see myself fitting a Cousins p/n DF200CMH240 (or whatever actual thickness is needed) as a substitute replacement.

Having purchased, briefly owned, dissected and summarily returned for credit, one of those Yves Saint Laurent YSL TD-780 7A28's (see page 1 of this thread), I can't honestly say I'd given them any further thought recently. Presumably the Hong Kong eBay seller (n)everstrong has continued to churn them out from his seemingly never-ending stash. Funnily enough, one came up in a search on Seiko 7A28 this morning listed by a UK eBay seller.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/222254116348

Genuine Yves Saint Laurent France Made Gents Watch 

Brand new without box 

Time to own the glamour

Yema watches made ​​for Yves Saint Laurent, based on the model Yema N7. The interesting thing about them - the mechanism Shimauchi V.905, which is a complete analogue of the legendary Seiko 7A28 - the world's first quartz chronograph movement entirely (1982). Yema used it during the period of cooperation with Seiko. 15 jewels, steering mechanism (step adjustment 0.26 sec. per day), all metal. Can serve as a donor for other 7A28 watches. More about films, not worn.

Grab a real bargain ! 

Please e-mail for any questions. 

Offers are considered ! 

Happy bidding !

Dunno about grabbing a real bargain.  50 quid opening bid is slightly more than these were selling for two years ago. 

Just out of curiosity, I ran a worldwide eBay search on ended listings and could only find this one from August this year.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/262581507433

Different eBay ID to before, but very likely the same Hong Kong seller. 

That UK eBay auction for the YSL TD-780 ended yesterday evening, selling for £56 (approx. $72.50) after only 2 bids.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/222254116348

Even though these YSL watches were selling for around $75 (or sometimes less) two years ago (out of Hong Kong), it obviously was less than the UK eBay seller had been hoping for, because late last night, he listed 'another' - with an opening bid price of £90 !! 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/152254994831

Note the change of eBay user ID from everything_is_here84 to time_to_own_uk - but their location of Hornchurch remains the same, as does the primary image. Without checking it word for word, the description looks pretty much the same as before, with the same strange gaffes.  There are a few more photos this time. Though if I'm not mistaken, the last two images have been 'borrowed' from the original eBay listing by Hong Kong eBay seller (n)everstrong and the Russian watch forum FS advert, both of which, by coincidence, are posted on the first page of this thread. 

Hang on a minute - I smell something fishy going on here (besides the 'borrowed' images). 

Although they relate to the same Yves Saint Laurent TD-780 discussed earlier in this thread ....

This next post - and the couple preceding could probably have equally been added to another thread in the eBay section:

This one - rather aptly titled: Another example of shill bidding - or just a suspicious pattern ?

Because that's what I believe we've been looking at ! 

If you check the bidding history on the previous listing: 

http://offer.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=222254116348

By a strange coincidence the winning bidder has a feedback of 48, and the abbreviated / encrypted form includes the letters o and n, which funnily enough is the same feedback number as the current eBay seller time_to_own_uk. Obviously not the smartest of shill bidders, because they frequently end up winning their own auctions, in their efforts to jack up the prices. 

http://offer.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=222254116348&aid=o***n

Although not difficult to prove in this particular instance, I still find the the above eBay bnllsh!t message extremely irksome. 

Caveat Emptor, as always, Gentlemen - especially when bidding on over-priced 'girly' fashion watches (even for a 7A28 donor). 

I hadn't bothered to post an update before, but it goes without saying, that second auction for a YSL TD-780 with a risible opening bid price of £90 went unsold - it ended on October 2nd. The same seller re-listed it earlier this week with a 99p opening bid:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/152300780406

If you're considering buying, be wary about shill bidding. As I proved in my previous post, the seller's other eBay ID has form. 

Seiko7A38 at September 26, 2016 at 8:46 AM

Although they relate to the same Yves Saint Laurent TD-780 discussed earlier in this thread ....

This next post - and the couple preceding could probably have equally been added to another thread in the eBay section:

This one - rather aptly titled: Another example of shill bidding - or just a suspicious pattern ?

Correction ....

Now I know I should have added the last couple of posts to that thread.  But as I've started here, I may as well carry on. 

That re-listing for the YSL-TD780 by eBay seller time_to_own_uk ended on Thursday evening, selling for 64 after 29 bids.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/152300780406

It seemed a fairly unremarkable result at first, but with rather more bids than one might have expected, so I thought I'd see if I could spot any further evidence of shill bidding. It wasn't too hard to find. There was one bidder who'd placed 6 of the 29 bids, but he'd lost the auction to another bidder who'd placed a total of 7 bids. The shill was in fact, the winning bidder ! 

http://offer.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=152300780406

If you check the activity of bidder i***s (57), you'll see that he regularly bids on this seller's items. Sounds familiar ? 

And who should this mystery bidder be ?  None other than this same person's other eBay ID everything_is_here84 !! 

If you click on the link to their first listing for this YSL TD-780, from September this year, you'll see their feedback is now 57. 

So I wouldn't be surprised if this same YSL TD-780 re-appeared on eBay once again, in the not too distant future. 

It did of course re-appear, just as I predicted - in fact, their latest listing was created over a week ago, and I nearly missed it !! 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/322336063093

Note the same location of Hornchuch, same set of photos as previous listings, same case-back serial number 609157, etc. ....

The difference this time, is that it's being (re)listed by another (third) different eBay user ID - michael_kors_addiction_uk !!