Seiko 7A38 - by the numbers

Hello,

I found this site

http://rbasson.wix.com/saafwatches#!seiko-7a28-and-7a38

7Axx  South African Air Force military issue

Does anybody have one of these or more information?

I've certainly seen references to them on other watch forums in the past, particularly on MWR, for example this post from 2010:

Here's the quote from Rikus's website: http://saafwatches.blogspot.co.uk/ (Rikus's original site was superceded a week later.)

Originally Posted by Rikus Website

(l to r) "Seiko cal. 7A28 - This watch is very similar to the early RAF issued Seiko’s but has a rotating diver's bezel. Between 1985 and 1986 850 of these were procured by the SAAF and the one in picture was issued to one of my brothers in the early 90’s. 

I'm not really a quartz fan but I have to admit that these were probably some of the best watches ever produced by any company. 

Seiko cal. 7A38 (Day-Date version of 7A28). 500 of these were procured by the SAAF in 1986. 

Movement: 

Cal - 7a28/38

Type - Quartz

BPH - 36000

Power Reserve - N/A

Jewels - 15

Hacking - Yes 

Seiko cal. 7T42 - sadly due to budget cuts these were the last watches procured by the SAAF and only 200 of these were procured in 1992. The one in picture was issued to one of my brothers in ’92 while flying for the Coast Guard Squadron in Cape Town. 

So Long Seiko’s ....

All you need do is google SAAF SEIKO - and it returns dozens of results, including Rikus Basson's current website you linked:

I haven't looked into the SAAF 7A28's, but it appears they were the same as the 'civilian' standard export model 7A28-7040 SPR013J.

Again the 7A38's look like the standard production item: 7A38-7070 SAA031J - and if the date in Rikus Basson's statement is correct:

Seiko cal. 7A38 The 7A38 was the Day-Date successor of the 7A28 and 500 of these were procured by the SAAF in 1986.

Then it's very likely they were all the later production version with the white painted main hands, rather than the 'polished edge' hands. As borne out by this photo of one on Rikus Basson's current website: 

Interestingly, the case-back serial # of the example shown: 8N4046 gives a much later date of manufacture of November 1988:

Compared to a 7A28-7120 RAF 'Gen. 1', the issue mark(s) added by SAAF are minimal - just a lightly engraved AFxxxxx serial number, which would be relatively easy to replicate. It wouldn't surprise me if there weren't already fakes out there, in military collectors' hands.

Indeed further down his subsequent Zimbio SAAF Wristwatch Page blog, dating from August 2010 Rikus himself wrote:

The issue data above comes from the original SAAF issue log that covers the late 60’s to the mid 90’s. I’ve compiled a summary of all AF-numbers per watch type from this log but I’m not sure I should post it as this could lead to a lot of fakes suddenly hitting the marketplace – Any views on this opinion?

An intriguing statement from Rikus's old pre-2008 blog site (quoted on MWR) also to be found on his 2010 Zimbio page reads:

"The lives of most SAAF Seiko’s were ended prematurely when the SAAF decided to buy a batch of cheap replacement batteries that started leaking after some time of use. The damaged Seiko’s are apparently still in SAAF storage but unfortunately parts for the 7A28/38 movements are no longer produced by Seiko."

Our newest member 'Darkwing' certainly knows something about these SAAF-issued watches, having had first hand experience. 

Dewald had told me previously in a PM, but I just noticed that he'd also written the same message on his own profile, for all to see:

I joined because I'm looking to buy a 7a38-7070. I'm ex-SA Air Force helicopter pilot and was issued with one of these from 1987-2001 (brand new). When I left the SAAF in 2001 I had to return the watch, something which I still regret doing! I've been looking for one ever since and managed to buy a 7a28 from Rikus Basson (he also has quite a collection). Can you maybe assist / point me in a direction with buying a 7a38-7070? Any help will be much appreciated.

He's now sorted. In less than a week. 

Sad Story:

"The lives of most SAAF Seiko’s were ended prematurely when the SAAF decided to buy a batch of cheap replacement batteries that started leaking after some time of use. The damaged Seiko’s are apparently still in SAAF storage but unfortunately parts for the 7A28/38 movements are no longer produced by Seiko."

A sad story indeed, Andre. 

There's a topic, warning of the dangers of using inferior quality replacement batteries in the 'Workshop Tech Tips' section:

A salutory warning about checking (which) watch batteries you're using !

However, there is a potential 'upside' to this unfortunate tale. If, in the unlikely event, these battery acid-damaged SAAF 7Axx's were ever released for sale to the general public (assuming they haven't already been sold or scrapped), regardless of how badly damaged their movements, dials and hands might be, they would represent a 'goldmine' in terms of (possibly unworn) replacement watch cases, bezels and bracelets - ideal for fitting with a replacement dial / movement from a tired civilian donor 'beater' - a 5 minute swap job. 

Found a few more old threads on the subject:

Seems there are quite a few ex-SAAF pilots who'd like to get their hands on a 7A28 (or 7A38) once again:

http://www.flyafrica.info/forums/showthread.php?32096 SAAF Seiko watches

Pity the photo of a 7A28-7040 which the OP posted (ex-SCWF), was of an example fitted with a non-original replacement bracelet. 

Here's a bit of sarcastic lavatory humour in a very old thread from July 2004 on PPRuNe (Professional Pilots Rumour Network). 

This thread on the SAAF forum was last updated only about a month or so ago:

http://www.saairforce.co.za/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4719 The last post reads:

Seiko's were also widely used by the SAAF. There used to be a gentleman at Waterkloof that did the repairs to the watches and yes,

he had a lot of spare parts! I wonder what happened to him and the spares?

I also found  what appears to be Rikus Basson's first and only post on the SAAF forum, dating back to August 2007:

http://www.saairforce.co.za/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=860 Wanted - SAAF Issued Wristwatches 

I’m looking for SAAF issued wristwatches by International, Seiko or Lemania (running or not) 

Please contact me on rbasson@interpharm.co.za 

Best Regards

Rikus 

But he'd been researching them fo(u)r years before. Here's a thread Rikus started on the old Network54 SCWF back in January 2003 !

http://www.network54.com/Forum/78440/thread/1041939550 Seiko Sports 100 Chronograph (7a28)

Hi, I'm a collector of South African Air Force watches and would really appreciate it if someone can give me a link with some info on the Seiko's used by the SAAF in the early 80's.

It looks like this: http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=78440&messageid=1041563349 (images long since gone).

Thanks and Regards

Rikus

Lastly for now, here's a thread from 2010 on the Italian watch forum, Orologi & Passioni written by Schirra, which includes some super photos of his 7A38-7070 and 7T42-6A00. It's also refreshingly free of any implied claims of military provenance for his own examples:

http://orologi.forumfree.it/?t=49468961 I Seiko della SAAF - Piccolo contributo

Most of you know I don't do 'Military'.  Whereas there's no denying the existence of small quantities of genuinely 'issued' watches - viz. 850 + 500 7A's by SAAF, what annoys the hell out of me is the number of would-be sellers (both on eBay and watch forums) who falsely associate / try to pass off their bog-stock retail versions as having such military connotations. I've seen lots over the years. 

Here's a 7A28-7040 that was advertised on SCWF Trading Post in May 2011: http://www.thewatchsite.com/index.php?topic=19350.0

Note the deliberately misleading title: FS: Seiko 7A28 SAAF issued with RAF movement 170$ shipped

This thread on TZ_UK, just two weeks earlier, obviously provided the inspiration for his fictitiously titled FS advert. 

So take a matt finish stainless steel black-dialed Seiko 7Axx .... stick a NATO strap on it, and it's got to be ex-military, right ? 

Another prime example.

What was it I wrote in the second paragraph of my first post (in reply to Andre) ?

All you need do is google SAAF SEIKO - and it returns dozens of results ....

Guess what now comes almost at the top of the google search results returned ? This thread ! 

Not only that, but I've also noticed a good number of incoming google searches on Seiko + 7A28 / 7A38 + Military arriving at this topic. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. 

In the meantime, I'd done a little more googling of my own and found this advert from December 2011:

http://www.junkmail.co.za/household/jewellery/gauteng/pretoria/seiko-7a28-pilot-watch-watch-issued-to-saaf-pilots-very-rare-19157104

The watch - a battered-looking 7A28-7040 certainly looks the part, but I can't see any evidence of a SAAF number on the case-back.

The fact it was offered for only 1500 Rand (approx. £105 / $160) makes me suspect that it wasn't a genuinely SAAF issued watch. 

There's undoubtedly a good reason why the statement which appeared on those two earlier iterations of Rikus's SAAF watch blogs:

"The lives of most SAAF Seiko’s were ended prematurely when the SAAF decided to buy a batch of cheap replacement batteries that started leaking after some time of use. The damaged Seiko’s are apparently still in SAAF storage but unfortunately parts for the 7A28/38 movements are no longer produced by Seiko."

.... doesn't appear on his current website. One assumes Rikus (as the leading authority on SAAF issued watches) had followed up.

So as I'd quoted it in our topic, adding my own two ha'pence worth and possibly building up reader's hopes - best we dispel it ASAP. 

There was also this: There used to be a gentleman at Waterkloof that did the repairs to the watches and yes, he had a lot of spare parts!

Although he still hasn't yet posted on the forum, over the last couple of weeks I've traded quite a few PM's with member 'Darkwing'.

In one of them, which I've asked his permission to quote, he wrote:

I know Rikus quite well; both his older brothers are also ex-SAAF pilots, hence his interest in SAAF issued watches. According to him, and the SAAF person responsible for repairing the watches in the SAAF, all the damaged watches were destroyed with hammers and scrapped. I've tried numerous times in the past, and apparently none of these watches are still in SAAF stores, not even parts.

All scrapped. The SAAF watchmaker still has some limited spares, but hardly enough to even build a couple of complete watches.

7A28's and 7A38's are in very short supply here in SA. I very seldom see one worn amongst current and ex-SAAF aircrew. Rikus himself told me that he's tried to source more watches and even spares, also one for his brother who handed his watch back, to his regret, and no joy. Rikus has contact with the person who used to repair watches at Waterkloof (now retired). He's got none left and told us how the SAAF destroyed the damaged watches.

So there you have it. Or not. 

I belatedly spotted this FS advert posted on a South African aviation forum last month:

http://www.avcom.co.za/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=125196

Original SAAF watch

Post by jadler » Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:14 pm

Hi everybody

I have an original SAAF Seiko that was issued to me maaaany years ago

Condition is as per pics and probably needs a service (I didn't service it in the 22 years I have had it, still keeps great time and I have replaced the battery once).

See pics below for condition.

Great collectors piece!

NOW FOR SALE FOR R1400.00

Call me on O,six,one, O,O, 3, O three 85

Obviously a suitably beaten-up example of a 7A38-7070. Zooming in and squinting hard at the case-back, the SAAF issue number appears to be AF14553. Oddly enough, like Rikus' watch, this also has an 8Nxxxx serial number, indicating it was manufactured in November 1988, which again appears to contradict the statement on his website: '500 of these were procured by the SAAF in 1986'.

Expecting he'd be interested in reading it, for obvious reasons, I've sent our newest forum member Wasabibutler a link to this thread. 

It's been a while since I last updated it, so I thought it prudent to check the many links I'd embedded in my various posts still worked.

The one in the previous post doesn't. That thread on avcom.co.za has since been deleted. 

However, it was replaced at the end of February with this one:

http://www.avcom.co.za/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=131699

SAAF PILOT WATCH

Post by jadler » Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:49 pm

HI EVERYONE

I am selling my original SAAF pilot Seiko watch. It is the Day date model.

It has original SAAF AF number on back (it is original as it was issued to me )

Please see pictures for condition, it works but has not been serviced in a while so would recommend it.

R1800.00

The primary image of the watch is the same as he posted in November. These other two of the case-back aren't much better.

Interestingly, following on from Jadler's FS post there are a number of replies urging him to keep it for sentimental reasons. 

Hi there guys

I am still currently in the SAAF and I've got a 7A38-7070. Got it from one of my colleagues that didn't want it anymore so I scooped it up. They are very rare in the SAAF. A lot went missing etc. There were a lot in Stores that could not be repaired but I don't know if they are still available. The guy at Waterkloof that used to service them has retired, but he still has spares and services them for people at a fee. I had mine serviced in 2011 as the stopwatch was not working. Did a lovely job and only cost me R200 ($20).

Our base commander has the 7A28-7040 without the date, and tried to swap with mine but I didn't fall for that one.

Mine is also an 8N serial number and has the AF marking. Mine is AF14656. Here are pics of the front and back.

Hope this info helps.

I will never give this one up. 

Thank you for making the effort to contribute to this thread, Neil.

Interesting that yours also has a Seiko 8Nxxxx serial number, indicating that it was manufactured in November 1988.

I'm beginning to wonder if Rikus Basson's statement:

The 7A38 was the Day-Date successor of the 7A28 and 500 of these were procured by the SAAF in 1986.

.... means that the SAAF may have placed their initial order in 1986, but were supplied (up to 2 years) later in smaller batches. 

I'll ask around and see if I can find out when they got them in. I spoke to my wife who works in the stores environment and they can't even trace date of purchase back as they are now on a new system. 

Neil. If anybody might know, it would probably be Rikus Basson - from whose various websites the procurement date of '1986' stems.

I sent him an email last year, querying his '1986' versus the November 1988 serial number of his own SAAF-issued 7A38-7070.

He never replied. Perhaps he took (the wording of) my question the wrong way.  Why don't you try asking him ? 

Think about what have we to go on so far:-

Rikus's:        AF14650  s/n 8N4046

Jadler's:       AF14553  s/n 8N4182

and yours:   AF14656  s/n 8N4077

But that's only 3 out of the 500 purchased by SAAF - potentially a <1% sample.

Maybe what has showed up so far is just a fluke and there are still dozens of lower AF14xxx's out there with 6xxxxx serial numbers.

.... means that the SAAF may have placed their initial order in 1986, but were supplied (up to 2 years) later in smaller batches.

Compare the SAAF 7A38-7070 to the RAF / RN 7A28-7120 Gen. 1's for instance. There were some 11,300 issued over 6 years plus.

The earliest - issued in 1984 have 48xxxx serial numbers, giving a date of manufacture of August 1984, like this example:

Right through to this one issued in 1990, with a 01xxxx serial number indicating a date of manufacture in January 1990:

Looking at case-back serial numbers, on various examples on just the first couple of pages in this thread, I can see at least 8 different batch months they were produced in - and presumably then shipped directly to the M.O.D. (Seiko had no reason to build for stock). Ergo, I'd think it's unlikely that Seiko produced one batch of 500 7A38-7070's (specifically for the SAAF) in November 1988.

Belated Edit: Having said that, out of curiosity I waded through the literally hundreds of photos of 7A38-7070's I have in my PC folder. The majority of them had the early style 'polished edge' hour and minute hands and 4xxxxx (1984) case-back serial numbers. It turns out that Seiko started using the white-painted hands (as per the 7A38-7270) in 1985. I found three with 54xxxx, 56xxxx and 5Oxxxx serial numbers. Most had 63xxxx (as does my own example) or 65xxxx serial numbers, then there was a 7Nxxxx and a 7Dxxxx, but the newest (non-SAAF issued) 7A38-7070 case-back I could find was an 87xxxx - July 1988. Hmm .... 

Conversely, if it turns out Rikus did get the '1986' procurement date wrong and it should actually be 1988, it would thus point toward these watches having all been manufactured in 1988 (presumably before everything left over was shipped to Seiko Brazil in Manaus, to start the ZFM 7A38-7075 production run), it would make it much more difficult for any unscrupulous person to fake a SAAF issued 7A38-7070 - unless they had an un-issued watch with a 8Nxxxx (or other late 1988) serial number. More food for thought. 

Very interesting. I will see if my wife is able to call up all the SAAF watches still on inventory and check serial numbers. Will get back to you. 

Thanks, Neil. 

If your wife can get any information, it would be really 'nice to have' the AF14xxx issue numbers against their full Seiko 6-digit serial numbers to see if there is any pattern - a similar numerical order to the 3 we've already got. She'll also need to differentiate between 7A28-7040's and 7A38-7070's in case there's any overlap in their issue numbers. I'm selfishly really only interested in the 7A38's. 

Again, Rikus Basson may well already have this information to hand. I know he has the range of AF1xxxx issue numbers per model .... but as he wrote on his (expired) Zimbio blog page, he's concerned about publishing (or sharing) it because of the potential for fakery.

Hi there Paul. She is working on it and I will get back to you. 

I did get my boss's watch details today. 

He has the 7A28-7040. It's SAAF serial is AF12971 and watch serial is 57xxxx. So this would be a July 1985. 

Here are the pics. 

Thanks for your continued helpful input, Neil. 

As you can see, I've post-edited a couple of our recent posts to correct those slight errata in serial numbers. 

A couple of observations about your boss's 7A28-7040:

His watch appears to have possibly suffered from a leaking battery at some point. Note the discolouration of the lume compound in the hands and on the 11, 12 and 1 o'clock hour batons. The battery well on a 7Axx is more or less directly under the 11 o'clock marker. His Tachymeter ring is well off kilter too. '60' should be aligned with '12'. Someone has obviously had the movement out at some point and not bothered to align it properly when they replaced it. There are various small pips moulded on the underside of the Tachymeter ring designed to engage cut-outs around the perimeter of the dial. Also the 7A28-7040 Tachymeter ring has cut-outs to clear the ends of the dial batons. If you get 5 minutes, it might be worth looking at some of the photos I've posted in this thread, for example this one:

One last thought. I know you guys wear your Wabi with pride, but should you ever decide to re-furbish your watches ....

You might want to consider fitting one of Yobokies excellent repro' bezel inserts now available. See this other thread.

PS - Funnily enough, the condition of the lume batons on Rikus Basson's own SAAF-issued 7A28-7040 ....

.... and the 7A28-7040 featured in the SAAF poster (photo © R.Basson) both look rather discoloured. 

Perhaps these watches were fortunate survivors of the SAAF's false economy measure: The lives of most SAAF Seiko’s were ended prematurely when the SAAF decided to buy a batch of cheap replacement batteries that started leaking after some time of use.

It's been a couple of years since I've seen any reference to an ex-SAAF 7Axx posted online anywhere. 

This was posted on WUS a couple of days ago: http://forums.watchuseek.com/f21/should-i-fix-up-3416338.html

The OP doesn't state which air force issued him with his 7A38-7070, but if it was genuinely issued, then it was very likely the SAAF.

Edit: in fact the OP had already confirmed the watch's SAAF heritage in another thread last week:

http://forums.watchuseek.com/f2/where-have-you-taken-3397250-2.html#post31494962

Indeed, searching back through the OP's older posts on WUS (from November 2013) ....

http://forums.watchuseek.com/f7/military-issued-watches-912526-3.html#post7040820

Transpires it's an example already documented earlier in this thread (see my posts dated December 27, 2013 and March 22, 2014).

The two small photos in this post are the same as used by Jadler in his original FS post on www.avcom.co.za in November 2013.

Looks like he made the correct decision and decided to keep it. 

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Johnna subsequently kindly posted a couple of better shots of the case-back of his 7A38-7070 in the most recent WUS thread:

..... Confirming the SAAF issue # of AF14553.