Seiko 7A38 - by the numbers

Seiko7A38 at December 29, 2012 at 2:11 PM

Sir Alan at December 27, 2012 at 6:20 PM

I would hazard a guess that the tachy ring should be red?

Spot on - at the third attempt, Simon. Also, what you wrote in your first reply post, was also partly correct, but not the exact answer. 

You'd normally see that later style red dial with gold sub-dial surrounds (and hands) used in conjunction with a red Tachymeter ring.

Though it could equally well be found in any of the following case finishes: all stainless; two-tone stainless or two-tone black and gold -

(and the all-black version you fancied earlier) but the later style case with the wider lug width, single point fixing (for bracelet or strap).

An early style case and bracelet with a black Tachymeter ring like that would normally have a red dial with the dark grey subdial rings,

and of course the matching dark grey hands with yellow inserts - of which there are so many examples shown in photos in this thread.

So definitely a Franken Ferrari 'cobble' - possibly out of neccessity, or something he's nailed together from left-over components. 

Either way, the would-be seller is taking the piss advantage, particularly at that hefty 1250 Euros asking price. 

Hence the irony in the title of their mail-shot message: Encore temps de profiter de 2012 - still time to take advantage in 2012.

I guess it was inevitable really - that no sooner than I'd posted the statement on the previous page, that somone would contradict it. 

A german eBay seller, who deals in them, ferrari_uhrensammler listed another 2 Cartier Ferrari Formula chronographs last night.

The first is a known variation, using the original style red / dark grey sub-dials in the early narrow-lugged (leather strap fixing) case:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/190778395394

Ferrari Chronograph, By Cartier, in Super Erhaltung, mit OVP & Papieren

The second one, which contradicts what I'd written, uses the same 'early style' red dial in the later case:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/190778385492

Ferrari Chronograph, By Cartier, in Super Erhaltung, mit OVP & Papieren

I'm going to stick by my guns.

I reckon that is another (complete and utter) 'bitza'. There is certainly evidence (on both strap links and dial) it has been messed with.

Looking at the number of different finishes: Stainless, Gold and Black on a TAN leather strap, I don't think I'm wrong about it either. 

There have been many Cartier Ferrari Forumula's listed on eBay, particularly in Germany, in the run up to Christmas and in January.

Most have been well-over-priced. 950 Euros seems to be a favourite 'think of a (Buy-it-Now) number' lately. 

Needless to say they don't sell and get re-listed ad nauseam. Indeed recently I'd noticed a couple that had previously first been listed on eBay back in 2011. It's getting to the point where I simply can't find the time / be bothered to track them any more.

I'll make an exception and mention this one, though - listed (for the first time) by a French eBay seller. It too went unsold, at 600 Euros:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290849325053

Speaking of that oft- favoured 950 Euros 'pie in the sky' price and recurrent re-listings, this auction on eBay Germany just ended:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121054965368

I don't think I've previously mentioned this particular example in the thread before, but according to my records, the would-be Austrian seller first listed it on eBay in the last week of June 2012. You'd have thought they might have got the message by now .... 

I'm giving this this next listing by an Italian seller an after-the fact mention, because I thought it could possibly have been misleading:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200882829545

In case that eBay listing photo looks vaguely familiar, try scrolling halfway down the first page of this thread and you'll see it has been 'borrowed' from an old listing on eBay Germany, back in mid-March last year (# 350540142292 - the one with the very long listing title).

The Italian seller had also marked item condition as 'New with Tags' (which the one in the German eBay listing evidently was) ....

But scroll down past his lengthy description and you'd have found these 3 photos of the actual watch he was selling:

Not quite such pristine condition; it has some wear of black coating and the bezel's gold plating; fitted with a replacement strap, etc.

Luckily, nobody got suckered into bidding over the 500 Euro opening bid price - and that's what it sold for around lunchtime today:

Speaking of that oft- favoured 950 Euros 'pie in the sky' price and recurrent re-listings, this auction on eBay Germany just ended ....

Tell me if I'm beginning to sound like a scratched record. 

Here's another - which, best I can tell (assuming the seller re-uses the same photo) was first listed at the beginning of December 2012:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261159471791

It went unsold (again) - and should thus serve an example of the greed and crass stupidity of some eBay sellers. 

Rather than accept a (more than generous) offer of 900 Euros on the first day of this re-listing, they allowed it to expire. 

This Cartier Ferrari Formula chrono', fitted with non-original stainless round pushers, which was listed on eBay in the States last week has already been mentioned in a couple of other threads - specifically this one in the eBay forum section, started by Woody:

http://www.seiko7a38.com/apps/forums/topics/show/8582353-cartier-ferrari-formula-non-standard-pushers-caveat-emptor

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/190791511087

Vintage Ferrari Chronograph watch Stainless and gold color case, Please look at the pictures as they illustrate the cosmetic condition of the item. keep in mind the item is used and has some minor scratches. Item is sold as is without return, so be certain you want the item before bidding. It is working and the chrono functions work as they should. Based on what I have looked up online this particular model was made By Cartier however I have not seen any markings to that effect on the case or the movement, but please do your research before bidding. The watch keeps good time and works great, but I am selling as is and as found. It measures approximately 41.00mm by 45.00mm lug to lug. Thank you and good luck.

The auction just ended. There were no takers - not even at the opening bid price of $495. Thankfully nobody suffered from 'Red Mist'.

It's rare for an eBay auction listing for a Cartier Ferrari Formula chronograph to include any reference to the Seiko 7A38 connection in the description - it hardly ever happens. Although a well-known fact to members of this forum, such an inclusion might indeed serve to devalue the watch. So I was rather surprised, last week, when a well-presented listing for one came up in my saved favourite search notifications for both 'Cartier Ferrari Formula' and 'Seiko 7A38'. In fact, the seller had included a link to this thread in their description.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/390539493212

Cartier Ferrari Formula - Chronograph - men's watch wristwatch

100% genuine - one owner - very good condition

This is a listing for a genuine Cartier Ferrari Formula Chronograph watch. What you read here and see in the photos is exactly what you get.

CONDITION

I am the first and only owner of this watch. The watch is in good-to-very-good condition. The strap was purchased new and installed in February 2013. The watch itself and its deployant clasp are original and have light scratches and wear marks as depicted here. The battery was installed in January 2013. Every function on the watch works properly including the day, date, split-second chronograph, seconds subdial, and chronograph seconds hand. All pushers are original and firmly in place. The day readout appears in English and Italian - the user can choose which language to display. The watch works perfectly.

SPECIFICS

This watch has been the topic of a lot of conversation on the internet. I would encourage bidders to read up on this at the following link, where some real savants have weighed in on the history, significance, and interest on this piece: http://www.seiko7a38.com/apps/forums/topics/show/7394242?page=1. Judging by other Cartier Ferrari Formula watches that have come up for sale on eBay, this particular watch here is unique because the movement and its pieces are all original, the pushers are original and intact, it works perfectly, has no corrosion, and is ready to wear.

TERMS

This listing includes only the watch - no box, no papers, no other documentation. I will carefully pack and double-box this watch so it arrives to the winner in exactly the same condition depicted here. The watch is in Atlanta, Georgia, and I will gladly meet locally to do a transaction in person. Shipping is a flat USD$20 via FedEx Ground anywhere in the continental U.S. and USD$50 anywhere else in the world. If you want shipping by some other method, e-mail me and we can work it out.

If you have any questions, please e-mail me. I reply to e-mails very quickly. Thanks for looking.

Indeed, the seller responded almost instantly to my couple of questions and published his reply to my 'smart ass' question about the replacement strap he'd fitted in the Q&A's. What happened was, in the brief interval between asking my first question, I remembered where I'd seen these straps before, offered by an Italian seller, a couple of years ago. Hence I answered it for myself, in the interim.

It was one of these and the reason I was familiar with them was because I'd actually considered purchasing the black version myself:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/350586019536

The seller didn't publish all Q&A's - just my second at the bottom of the listing. Here's his reply to another question about the strap:

The quality is pretty good. The underside is not stamped with any branding at all. I debated purchasing the black, red, or burgundy straps, but in the end chose the beige / tan as depicted here. However I would note the shade of the tan is not the same as the OEM strap; the original is significantly darker.

The issue with these leather straps is just that the adhesive on the ends near the spring bars is kind of weak, and thus the lifespan is abbreviated. This is common between the OEM one and Jewelry-Elite one here. Not a huge issue, but one buyers should be aware of.

Also just FYI, the strap took nearly a month to arrive to me in the States. Might be faster for you.

So, for once, a refreshingly candid honest eBay listing for a used Cartier Ferrari Formula chronograph. I thought it might do well. 

The auction ended at around 10:30pm UK time, yesterday - I had an early night for a change. 

It sold for $836 (approx. £534) after 33 bids, ending in a 3-way last 10 second shoot out.

We got to be called 'Real Savants' too. Makes a pleasant change from a bunch of 'Smart A$$es'. 

Another suspect possibly cobbled-together red-dialed Cartier Ferrari Formula offered by the Austrian eBay seller 'Srilanka20082012':

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/140921081399

FERRARI CARTIER CHRONOGRAPH UHR FERRARI FORMULA SERIE NEUWERTIG HAU PAPIERE

Again what's mostly wrong with this one is it's the early style red dial (with 'JAPAN QUARTZ' printed on the 30 minute subdial) fitted in a later style stainless case and bracelet. But check out the 'pusher' button at 10 o'clock. Look how far it's sticking out, compared to the other 3 buttons. Could it be that he's actually tried to fit a crown (with the longer threaded spigot) in place of a proper pusher button ?

Seiko7A38 at January 30, 2013 at 11:26 AM

Speaking of that oft- favoured 950 Euros 'pie in the sky' price and recurrent re-listings, this auction on eBay Germany just ended:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121054965368

I don't think I've previously mentioned this particular example in the thread before, but according to my records, the would-be Austrian seller first listed it on eBay in the last week of June 2012. You'd have thought they might have got the message by now .... 

Here's an intriguing one - if indeed it is 'kocher'. 

After failing to sell at the end of January, that stainless two-tone red-dialed Cartier Ferrari Formula was re-listed twice more:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121061220119 (ended 12th February) and http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121068210486 (ended 27th February)

I was just going through my eBay watching page, clearing out a few ended auctions, to allow me to add more new listings ....

When I noticed this one had finally actually sold - for 950 Euros !! 

The three bids were all placed by the same eBay ID a***a (509); stacked - as if someone wanted it badly enough to place 'safety bids'.

http://offer.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&_trksid=p2047675.l2565&rt=nc&item=121068210486

This UK eBay auction ended earlier this evening:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/130859372338

GOOD MENS CARTIER FERRARI CHRONOGRAPH QUARTZ DRESS WRIST WATCH

A good gentleman’s genuine Cartier Ferrari chronograph quartz dress wrist watch, the red circular face with seconds sweep hand, baton number markers, date day wheel indicator and three smaller subsidiary dials, the whole on a black leather strap, the strap could do with replacing as it is worn, in good working order, the dial measures approx 3.2cm wide. Please see photos for cosmetic condition as it has been preowned and used, it comes in a Cartier presentation box.

It made £505 after 31 bids - which, given the seller stated that 'the strap could do with replacing ....', the fact that it came in a 'generic' Cartier watch box (rather than the correct Ferrari Formula box) and was without papers, is somewhere in the right ball-park, price-wise.

I haven't bothered commenting on sales of Cartier Ferrari Formula chrono's recently - just been sitting back watching the shenanigans tried on by some would-be sellers - particularly certain individuals on eBay Germany.   Some of these (obviously the same) watches you'll see popping back up - re-listed over and over - but not neccessarily by the same eBay user ID. As Simon can bear witness to. 

Here's another later-style red / gold dial on black leather deployment (like the previous) that allegedly sold yesterday for 890 Euros:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161000273645

The seller 'spendensammler' previously went by the user ID of 'mister-ming'. I'm sure he's 'sold' this one a couple of times before. 

This auction on eBay Germany, for an early style red 'TestaRossa' Cartier Ferrari Formula, on bracelet ended a couple of hours ago:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251253284477

The 'below average' selling price may be attributable to the poor quality photos the seller included in the listing. Not the best. 

Still, it all appeared to be there, so perhaps this may have been a 'fuzzy photo gamble' for somebody - that might well have paid off. 

Another auction for one of the later style red-dialed Cartier Ferrari Formula chrono's on eBay Germany ended a few minutes ago:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161007288536

Original Cartier / Ferrari Formula Chronograph in gesuchtem Rot, In OVP.

Verkaufe meinen schönen Ferrari Formula Chronographen. 

Ein tolles Schmuckstück und eine Wertanlage, da eine Sammleruhr. 

Hergestellt BY Cartier und auch Verkauf durch Cartier Juweliere. 

Mit Original Box und dazu gehörigen Papieren. 

Die Uhr hat eine ausgefüllte Garantiekarte und die Gebrauchsanweisung ist noch vorhanden. 

Gekauft wurde die Uhr am 27.03.1992.

Chronograph wurde als Schmuckstück behandelt und Getragen. Aber sie wurde getragen.

Der Service wurde durchgeführt und die Batterie wurde erneuert.

Ab 1000 Euro lege ich noch ein Original Ferrari Formula Lederband dazu.

It sold for 1010 Euros (approx £866) after three bids ....

However, particularly if I was the winning bidder, I would suspect that once again, sad to say, shenanigans were played.

Check the bidding: http://offer.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&_trksid=p2047675.l2565&rt=nc&item=161007288536

and you'll see the second bid of 1000 Euros was chucked in with less than 10 minutes to go by a zero feedback bidder. Smells. 

Seiko7A38 at April 7, 2012 at 2:25 PM

It seems even Cartier Ferrari Formula '7A48 parts watches' can go for what some might deem 'silly money' sometimes, too. 

Thanks to Chris for giving me the heads up on this one - 2 hours before the auction ended; it was then still at only 40 Euros:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/260993779690

FERRARI-JAPAN-MADE-MOVEMENT-HERREN-QUARZ-UHR

It was being sold on the basis that: The item in this auction may be defective but may also work.

Here's what the complete watch would have looked like:

Clearly it was missing the complete bracelet (looks like it had been badly wrenched off, with some minor damage to one corner of the watch case) - and typically, also missing one pusher button cap. It might have made for an interesting rebuild project; a 7A38 / 7A48 cased Franken, or even as a case parts donor. Incredibly, even in this condition it made 202 Euros (approx. £166.69) after 18 bids. 

Unfortunately I didn't bid anywhere near high enough, and was well down the order in the last 5 second snipe fest. 

Something I did learn (or at least finally had my suspicions confirmed), is that the Ferrari version of Seiko's 7A48(A) is Cal. 532. 

Hi, I've got a watch like this and i noticed something from your photos, on the original booklet that you scanned in the upper post, the watch didn't have "Japan Quartz" in between 3 and 4 o'clock. can be this a difference between cartier's version and  this herren quartz version?

Hi. If you go back to my original post on page 1 - and from what you've written, I understand you may have read it anyway, I wrote:

If you look very closely at early production units (from the first year), you'll find JAPAN QUARTZ printed on the 9 o'clock subdial.

Popular myth has it that it was removed from the dial at the behest of the 'Old Man', though it was probably more likely driven by marketing and / or regulations. From then onwards, instead just QUARTZ (without Japan) appeared stamped on the case-backs.

There, I was referring to the Cal. 531 - i.e. the Seiko 7A38 powered Cartier Ferrari Formula chrono's. I must admit, until you pointed it out, I hadn't noticed the same thing (but with 'Japan Quartz' printed between 3 o'clock and 4 o'clock) on the Cal. 532 7A48 versions.

All these watches were made for Ferrari by Cartier - or one of their subsidiaries, from memory - Ateliers ABC. 'Herren-Uhr' (forget the 'Quartz' for the moment) in that eBay listing title just means 'Mans watch' (in German). If you spend any time searching on watches on eBay Germany, you'll see it written in a number of ways: Herrenuhr; Herren-uhr; Herrenarmbanduhr - sometimes abbreviated to HAU.

To further add to your possible confusion, there were also mechanical (as opposed to quartz) versions of the Cartier Ferrari Formula chrono' powered by the Valjoux 7750 movement. The watch cases and bracelets were very similar, but the dial and pusher layout are different. Sometimes they have Day / Date, or just a Date. Here's a couple of photos of a solid 18K gold one I saw in August last year:

Note the 'Swiss Made' printed at the bottom of the dial and on the case-back. Limited Editions like this tend to fetch very high prices. Not to say they don't exist, but I've never yet seen a 7750 Valjoux powered version with a red dial. You'll sometimes see them on eBay Germany, in less exotic materials - the Day / Date stainless bracelet with a black dial being one of the more commonly found variants:

As I think I've written somewhere earlier in the thread, surprisingly these more basic variants of the Valjoux 7750 powered version will sometimes sell on eBay for less than the prices achieved by the ever-popular red dialed Cal. 531 '7A38' quartz powered versions.

Here's a stainless / black-dialed Valjoux 7750 version (but on a leather strap, rather than a bracelet) listed on eBay Germany today:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/140968096431

Seiko7A38 at May 2, 2013 at 5:44 AM

Hi. If you go back to my original post on page 1 - and from what you've written, I understand you may have read it anyway, I wrote:

If you look very closely at early production units (from the first year), you'll find JAPAN QUARTZ printed on the 9 o'clock subdial.

Popular myth has it that it was removed from the dial at the behest of the 'Old Man', though it was probably more likely driven by marketing and / or regulations. From then onwards, instead just QUARTZ (without Japan) appeared stamped on the case-backs.

There, I was referring to the Cal. 531 - i.e. the Seiko 7A38 powered Cartier Ferrari Formula chrono's. I must admit, until you pointed it out, I hadn't noticed the same thing (but with 'Japan Quartz' printed between 3 o'clock and 4 o'clock) on the Cal. 532 7A48 versions.

All these watches were made for Ferrari by Cartier - or one of their subsidiaries, from memory - Ateliers ABC. 'Herren-Uhr' (forget the 'Quartz' for the moment) in that eBay listing title just means 'Mans watch' (in German). If you spend any time searching on watches on eBay Germany, you'll see it written in a number of ways: Herrenuhr; Herren-uhr; Herrenarmbanduhr - sometimes abbreviated to HAU.

got that, i got this watch from a local antique fair, i will go to a watchmaking shop next week and i will see if is a real ferrari watch or a fake one. do you know if this type of watch was made also by fake brands?

There are certainly plenty of 'other brand' Fake Ferrari watches out there, but I've never yet seen a fake Cartier Ferrari Formula chrono'. Again - that's not to say they don't exist. What you will sometimes see, especially with a couple of less scrupulous German eBay sellers (srilanka20082012, for one, springs to mind immediately) is that they will swap dial / movements around between watches, to create non-original configurations. We call these Frankens. There are a couple of such examples cited earlier in this thread, IIRC.

Of course, as was discussed in another thread in this section, Seiko 7Axx and Ferrari Cal. 531 / 532 movements are interchangable:

http://www.seiko7a38.com/apps/forums/topics/show/7862661-ferrari-formula-chronograph-movement-swap-advice

Then there's this Franken Ferrari I built myself, just for fun, in a Seiko 7A38-7060 watch case:

http://www.seiko7a38.com/apps/forums/topics/show/7696547-my-franken-7a38-feiko-ferrari-fumblings-part-2

Why don't you post some photos of your watch ? I'll happily give you my honest opinion. 

here some photos, https://www.dropbox.com/sh/yno6lfvudekz58p/tSfDJv2WmY

how you surely can see, has a missing knob, i would like to start the recondition of it, do you think is possible?

George. As you can see I've embedded your photos in your post. That watch looks fine to me - a decent antique market find ! 

OK - so it might not have 'Japan Quartz' printed on the dial, but now hopefully you understand that is of no great importance.

It looks perfectly genuine to my eyes. All it really needs, that I can see, is a new crystal and a replacement pusher button.

Neither are particulary difficult jobs, but sourcing a replacement for that missing pusher button may not be easy (nor cheap).

Have a read of this thread:

http://www.seiko7a38.com/apps/forums/topics/show/7548343-cartier-ferrari-missing-pusher-buttons-if-push-comes-to-shove