Seiko 7A38 - by the numbers

Whilst we'd all like a nice array of NOS 7A38s in our large display cabinets and a choice selection of wearers and beaters, the reality of the collecting world is very different for many of us. Thankfully the online marketplace caters for all budgets and many a cheapo bargain can be found by the obsessed and/or astute collector.

Sadly, there is also an underclass.  Not all 7A38s survive 25+ years in Swiss (or Japanese even!) bank vault.  Many get battered to within a tick of their last tock or worse.  Divers are even used to dive with!

Hopefully this section will allow us to identify and learn from not the good but the bad and the ugly.  Feel free to contribute.

It's a jungle out there.

Stuff like this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/300662647545

Just like to say how much I hate this watch!

To let this one pass without some comment on that truly pitiful bezel rework would be a shame.

Also:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/350531027798

I hovered over the BIN on this one late the other night, figured it was fixable and cosmetically in OK shape. Whilst pondering, the BIN went up $10! It wasn't a tough decision really, but you know how you just get tempted! The many photographs cunningly exclude a decent one of the bracelet, which by virtue of omission must be right knackered.

I've just bought this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/190638395423

but only with the intention of taking it apart, and learning how a 7A38 goes together - case, pushers, crown, bezel, crystal, gaskets, and then the movement.

Its in a real mess (which Paul did advise me about), but in ways thats a good thing as I won't be tempted to try and salvage it.

Copying and pasting part of an earlier (now deleted) post:

So do me a favour, please James. Please start a new topic / thread in this forum section.

Give it as imaginitive / all-encompassing / exclusive / inclusive a topic title as you may see fit.

Well done, James. 

That's pretty much 'all encompassing', though I probably would have chosen slightly stronger wording, including the term 'crap'. 

What you originally wrote about that 7A38-7070 (item # 300662647545) echoes my own feelings. 

"Just like to chime in and say how much I hate this watch!

It may not be a Franken per se, but to let this one pass without some comment on that truly pitiful bezel rework would be a shame."

And that's the thing - it wasn't a Franken really - just another example of a typically badly botched mess coming out of the Philippines.

All the usual signs - Badly matched / ill-fitting (used?) after-market bezel insert; polished glass and case-back, original bracelet gone, 

replaced with whatever falls to hand, badly discoloured original lume (as in this case) or badly re-lumed (read ruined) dial and hands.

What never ceases to amaze me is the incredible prices these tired pieces of junk manage to achieve - $177.50 in that instance. 

James.

That 'Parts or Restoration' 7A38-7080 which sold for $144.50, which you cited, is definitely worthy of further comment.

See: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/350531027798

SEIKO 7A38 SPORTS 100 BLACK CHRONOGRAPH QUARTZ FOR PARTS OR RESTORATION

It's not so much as what the seller stated in his description about its functionality, merely being that it was: 'Not running' ....

More so what he didn't actually say - and that was although the dial / lume didn't appear to have suffered adverse effects, 

the movement had clearly been ravaged by acid / fumes leaking from an old run-down battery, left in situ for far too long.

One didn't have to study the seller's other listing photos too hard, to work that out for oneself:

Apart from the crystalline gunge in the battery recess; badly stained discoloured back-plate, check out the area around the crystal.

You're looking at the MINIMUM, a new PCB, probably a complete movement strip and re-build, or at worst a replacement movement.

How do I know ? Been there, done that - got the T-shirt - YEARS ago.

The very first 7A38 'Diver' I bought on eBay (myself) was actually a 'Blingy' gold-tone 7A38-6109. The first one I'd seen on eBay, 

It was described as 'This watch is currently not running due to the battery being drained'.

It arrived looking very nice indeed, cosmetically, but the lume was slightly discoloured in the upper part of the dial.

This is a copy and paste of what I wrote on RLT at the time:

Cosmetically pristine, with virtually no wear of the gold plating - just a few tiny 'desk diver' marks on the underside of the bracelet. The crystal was unmarked. I got the case-back off fairly easily, but wasn't too pleased with what I found inside. The old battery must have been left in there for at least 10 years. It had leaked, and caused some very localised corrosion. Strangely, it had eaten away the lugs on the end of the (steel) positive terminal plate .... Yet the gold-plated negative terminal (which usually suffers in such cases) was virtually like new. I cleaned it up, best I could, in situ, with Rodico and a small stiff brush, before dropping the movement out. Closer inspection revealed that there was more corrosion to the PCB and crystal, under the anti-magnetic shield. Tried a new battery in it, making sure that it was properly earthed, but nary a twitch from the second hand. Totally dead. Oh well - some you win, some you lose.

Here's a photo of the very same movement, which I removed from that 7A38-6109:

By then, the 7A38-6109 609L dial and hands had been transpanted onto another spare working movement, and I had robbed this movement of its centre chrono' shaft finger tension spring. Doesn't look too bad, compared to that 7A38-7080's movement,  does it ?

Here's another (slightly out of focus) photo I took of that same movement as I stripped it down:

Note the acid damage to the PCB - it was worse on the component side. Can't find a photo, but I think after I peeled it off I binned it.

Now look at the crystal inspection slot on that 7A38-7080's movement. What (little) you can see is a LOT worse than this one was. 

I'd also suspect that someone may have had a go at trying to resurrect it already. Note the commonplace displaced finger spring. 

Glad I swerved it really.

That first picture was tempting and I was well aware that the innards were junk.  Ultimately, I think about £40-50 for a repairer is fair enough, model depending, more is too much.

It's just quite rare that you get any of the more attractive models in any condition as a BIN or at a low price.

Oh well...

To Finland and beyond...

Sorry, James - I assumed you'd been aware - it wasn't meant to come across sounding like Basil Fawlty describing Sybil's attributes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1Y7VKYWdUo

I just thought it might serve as a salutory example to warn any less-experienced readers what to look out for in the future. 

Are you leaving us for the forseeable future then ? 

I think the 'trip' is to see this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/250998706107

Gotcher.  You must be running eBay searches even more often than I do ! 

Well, don't worry about me going after this one. I've got 2 almost mint 7A38-7070s and an all-black 709L dialed Franken already:

Let's hope this auction actually manages to 'go the distance' for a change. Unless you happen to be the one making an offer. 

I've got one Ebay search:  'Seiko'

No offers from me, just thought i'd allude to a live auction rather than post a link to it!  And an unusual venue at that, which allowed my piece of mystery...

I just thought it might serve as a salutory example to warn any less-experienced readers what to look out for in the future.

Quite.  To be the ultimate resource everything must be covered.  No detail is too small. Really!

You're not taking the michael there, by any chance, are you James ? 

Actually, had we bothered to discuss that awful 7A38-7070 offered by 'apol_of_your_eyes' which you slated earlier, in greater detail:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/300662647545 - it might have proven an interesting comparison to the current Finnish example you linked.

You're right, the Finnish one that you I linked looks a decent enough example, whereas purely for the shameful bezel insert work, apol_should_cover_his_eyes.

Seriously though, not taking the Michael at all re: detail. Ages ago I rebuilt a H249 and wrote up an article that got nearly no response on the SCWF. Since then 2 people have contacted me directly with questions or requests regarding their own H249s. Almost by default on an unpopular watch, I've inadvertantly become an authority (I'm not). Somewhere, sometime, someone will want to know about the battery leaked innards of a 7A38 or some random other 7A38 query. 

www.Seiko7A38.com will provide the answers.

Subtitled: Beyond Economic Restoration ??? 

Spotted this 7A28-7040 on eBay Germany this morning, though if it weren't for the listing title, you might have to look twice:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/260966786462

SEIKO Chrono Chronograph Sports 100 Werk Seiko 7A28-7040 Armbanduhr Uhr Bastler

There's half a dozen graphically honest photos in all  - doesn't get better in any of them. Beyond restoration and hope, I'd wager.  

Stunning Condition !

Maybe useful for stem/crown, pushers and bezel......worth the starting price?   

Here's an interesting 7A28 listed as *not working* spares or repairs only on eBay in the UK overnight: 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/180833997554

Vintage Seiko Sports 100 and 7a28 watches *not working*

Here are two old Seiko sports watches. Will also include another skeleton type watch. None appear to be working so sold as spares or repairs only - may need batteries as been in the draw for ages. The chrono seiko has a small dial hand indicator missing while the sports 100 Seiko has a cracked plastic shroud and small bits missing? The Seiko straps are in good condition and complete. Nice watches when repaired.

On the face of it, it would appear to be a rather poor example of the desirable JDM 7A28-7100 (SAY091) 'Reversed Panda'.

Here's what it originally would have looked like - I believe this is David Johnson's (DWJQuest) pristine example:

The seller is 'lesterplant' - well known (to me) as a purveyor of 7Axx frankens and for, shall we say, 'being economic with the truth'. 

Let's start with the obvious - not only is it missing one (red) chronograph sub-dial hand, but the one remaining has been fitted on the wrong (6 o'clock seconds) subdial. Which might indicate that all the hands have been pulled - for whatever reason. Deteriorating lume on the hands and indicies points to prior battery leakage or moisture ingress. The watch appears to be fitted with the correct bracelet, but being a JDM model should have a 'Speedmaster' embossed clasp. It hasn't - but the other Sports 100 offered in the same lot, mysteriously has one fitted. I don't know this model well enough to state for (100%) certain, but I'm pretty sure that the 7A28-7100 should have a plain case-back. In his listing photo the 7A28 (note: no full cal. / case number given in the description) would appear to have a 'Double Wave' case-back. I wonder which other 7A28 it might be off. Note also that the minute ring also strangely appears to be totally devoid of any markings. Wiped clean ?

What obviously lets this watch down more than anything is the poor condition 'Pepsi' Tachymeter bezel insert. A well-known bodge, used by many a Filipino watch-botcher is to replace the original 7A28-7100 part with an after-market repro' 6139-6002 bezel insert, like this:

Which begs the question why someone else hasn't tried it. If you're thinking you might be able to rebuild this watch, all I can say is ....

Caveat Emptor, Gentlemen. 

Edit: I'm not suggesting, nor implying that this is the same 7A28-7100, nor that the poster on SCWF is in any way connected, but ....

http://www.thewatchsite.com/index.php/topic,28879.msg175292.html

.... just seems like a funny coincidence.

Not really worthy of inclusion in the '7A38 Franken (Part2)' thread, because apart from the non-original bracelet, it's mostly pukka:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/320861676146

Nice Vintage SEIKO QUARTZ CHRONOGRAPH SPORTS 100 Watch Day/Date 7A38-702A A5

Nice Vintage SEIKO QUARTZ CHRONOGRAPH SPORTS 100 Watch Day/Date 7A38-702A A5

This watch is in overall very good condition

Runs well

Stainless steel case and band with gold accents on bezel

Gold dial is in great shape

Crystal has scratches and dings

See all photos for complete details

Measures 43mm lug to lug and 36mm in diameter

Will fit up to a 7.5 inch wrist

Please feel free to ask questions .....

O.K., Mr. oka1ok .... Please tell me what exactly is it you feel that is 'nice' or 'good condition' about this watch ? 

Firstly, it's filthy dirty, covered in year's worth of someone else's accumulated DNA. 

Secondly, as is often the case, the gold plating has been stripped from the bezel. I assume the 'gold accents' means 'dummy rivets'. 

Thirdly it's on an incorrect replacement Seiko bracelet, which if I'm not mistaken is the (still) commonly available Seiko p/n Z1357S. 

It was only listed overnight on eBay in the States, yet it has a first bidder already - make that 4 different bidders now, 12 hours later !

No surprise (to me) either - it's those same eBay ID's again - who seem to have been all over 7A38s on eBay lately - of more anon. 

Another awful beat-up piece of junk being offered on eBay - again not a Franken per se, but not 100% correct, either:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/150773335400

VINTAGE SEIKO 7A38-7000 LAP TIMER 1/10S 3 REGS QUARTZ CHRONOGRAPH

RARE SEPERATED DAY DATE PULLMATIC ALL GOLD PLATED 2LANG

With it's original, Gold Plated on steel bracelet. Large size bracelet.

Well, looking at the state, it may well have been on the watch a L-O-N-G time, but it's NOT the correct original p/n B1170G bracelet.

It's similar in style, and a reasonable fit to the case, but shouldn't have those black inlays (which the stainless version B1170S has).

For sure to mislead some poor soul. 

Anyone for parts?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/230757853364

The 7T34 in the auction is probably preferable to the 7A38, which is, how to say, lacking somewhat, still at least it's not a 7270!  Couple of days to go, looking cheap so far, hopefully my highlighing won't raise the price.  Hard to value the lot really.

I won't be bidding. there's too many parts in my drawers already... (!)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/270930367620

Again, the question is:  What's left?  Maybe a blend of the two lots and you're away!

Ah well, back to rummaging...

Thanks for the heads up, I'm interested