Seiko 7A38 - by the numbers

I was in two minds as to whether to tack this onto the existing 'Poor Man's Jean Lassale Thalassa 7A74 thread, which had already run to three pages (and I'd already written my final post-script back in October 2014) - or to create a separate new topic. 

This watch is potentially the most expensive 7Axx ever produced by a Seiko subsidiary, so I decided on the latter.

I had mentioned the existence of the solid 18ct gold Thalassa 7A74 a couple of times in the 'Poor Man's thread.

Here follows copy and pastes of the relevant parts of those posts ....

Originally posted by myself on August 8, 2012 at 5:53 PM

I finally found exactly what I'd been looking for, in an advert by Tourneau Corner in 'New York' magazine, issue dated 13th June 1988 (more by luck, than judgement !)

So my all-stainless 7A74-017 was indeed the 'Poor Man's Thalassa 7A74 - a mere $1800 in 1988. But let's put that in perspective.

That's a 6:1 differential in R.R.P. between the $295 Seiko 7A38 and the 'bargain-basement entry-level' Thalassa 7A74 @ $1800 !! 

Calculating inflation from 1988 - 2012 at  factor of 1.94, that would be equivalent to almost $3500 in today's money. Scary thought.

What's even worse, check out the price of the stainless + 18K two-tone Thalassa 7A74 in 1988 - $3850 - that's + $2050 on top !! 

Obviously partly related to the price of gold, but perhaps there was also an element of 'let's see what can we get away with' built in.

Gold was at a high of $850 / troy ounce in 1980, but by 1988 had fallen back to $500 per ounce. Today's price is around $1600 / oz.

So, with the all 18K version of the Thalassa 7A74 at $13,000 in 1988 doesn't even begin to bear thinking about in today's money. 

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Originally posted by myself on August 5, 2014 at 11:16 PM

Belated Edit: September 8, 2014

Indeed, while I was searching a French magazine's online archives, for an image of the Fred Force 10 '7A38', I found this page. 

The first sighting of an all 18ct gold Jean Lassale Thalassa 7A74, albeit on a leather strap. So they did exist - at least on paper. 

But of course they must have existed - otherwise Tourneau Corner wouldn't have been advertising them, would they ? 

I just never really expected to see one listed on eBay. Where else should it rock up, but Las Vegas, NV - bling capital of the USA. 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/252269350114

Note the case-back model number (of this 18ct gold version) appears to stamped 7A74-011. 

Although the seller has clearly borrowed from my 'Poor Man's Thalassa 7A74 thread, he patently hasn't read it thoroughly. 

When I read that last sentence above and particularly his suggestion of 'slightly unscrewing it' I had to chuckle to myself. 

How many examples of Thalassa 7A74's are mentioned in that other thread with missing pushers ?  

To be honest, now I've finally seen photos of a 18ct 'solid' gold Thalassa 7A74 fitted with the bracelet I'm a little disappointed. 

Not only is this not the best example, with gnarled-up bracelet fixing screws and a few dings in the bezel ....

But the bracelet on this example, which the seller goes into raptures about, is something of a 'lightweight' con trick.

If you compare the above listing photos, of the underside of the 18ct gold bracelet with my 'Poor Man's stainless version:

The underside of the links have been considerably 'hollowed out' - presumably by the manufacturers, as a cost / weight saving. 

It weighs a whopping 159.2 grams.

So at 159.2 grams (less the weight of the movement and crystal), with a Buy-it-Now asking price of $9000 ....

$64K Question: Is it actually worth it's weight in Gold ? - as scrap. Anybody like to do the math ? 

Incidentally, at the time of writing, some 4 months later, that solid 18ct gold Thalassa 7A74 remains unsold. The would-be eBay seller continues to re-list it (for 10 days duration) though not always continuously, so I've lost count of the number of times. 

The latest re-listing has about 15 hours still left to run and I appear to be the only person watching it.

Needless to say, no movement yet in the seller's 'pie-in-the-sky' Buy-it-Now asking price of $9000. 

Funnily enough, that amusing little faux pas, he wrote about the 4 o'clock pusher button / plunger possibly needing unscrewing ....

.... was mysteriously edited out of the description of original listing the day before it ended:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemRevisionDetails&item=252269350114

I was googling images on 'Jean Lassle Thalassa' this morning (looking for something else) when I spotted an image of an 18ct gold 7A74 which I hadn't seen before. No great surprise that it comes from the website of Las Vegas based eBay seller afinewatch.

http://afinewatch.com/swiss-watches/jean-lassale-thalassa-18k-gold

The wording on the website page looks pretty much the same as the eBay listing description (though I haven't bothered to compare them word for word) - and the other 8 photos are the same ones he's used in the various re-listings. Strange he hasn't used this particular photo on eBay. I'd have thought this would have made a better primary image than his 'wrist shot'. 

As I wrote earlier this morning, in another unrelated thread, I add a lot of stuff to my eBay watching page that I have absolutely no intention of ever buying. I do this simply to see what these watches sell for - if they eventually do. Sometimes I'm the only 'watcher'. This 18K gold Jean Lassale Thalassa 7A74-011 is a classic case in point. Even if I had a few thousand dollars going spare, I'm not sure I'd want to splurge it on this - lack of good taste being another consideration. But I've watched it being re-listed over and over, time after time, for well over a year now.  The would-be US eBay seller's primary wrist shot image had become quite familiar.

So I had to have a quiet chuckle to myself yesterday, when I noticed that he'd finally taken my advice and changed the primary image to that other photo of the watch that had been missing from his previous eBay listings (see my previous post).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/252792272836

Now, about your asking price, Igor - which was $9000 and has crept up to $9500 (not reflecting prevailing prices nor reality) .... 

We have set the price after a careful research of the market. You are welcome to make an offer if you feel our price does not reflect prevailing prices. However ... please do not waste your time or ours by making offers with no base in reality !!

Seiko7A38 at January 29, 2016 at 5:54 AM

It weighs a whopping 159.2 grams.

So at 159.2 grams (less the weight of the movement and crystal), with a Buy-it-Now asking price of $9000 ....

$64K Question: Is it actually worth it's weight in Gold ? - as scrap. Anybody like to do the math ? 

I just have.  Using this: www.scrapgolduk.co.uk/scrap-gold-calculator

The quoted 159.2 grams of 18 carat gold at today's rates, calculates as £3,695 GBP or $4,549 USD.

This US website www.goldcalc.com/scrap_gold_value.php came up with a slightly higher figure of $4,755 with the added the rider: 

This doesn't mean you should expect to receive $4,754.74 from a buyer. This amount represents the current melt value using the live gold price.

But then of course, you'd need to subtract the weight of the crystal, dial, Tachymeter ring and movement from that 159 grams. 

Out of curiosity (and for no other reason) I'd continued to add every subsequent re-listing by US eBay seller afinewatch to my watching page. For the last 9 months I've been the only watcher. Yesterday, I noticed he'd ended the most recent re-listing early, allegedly because the item was no longer available.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/253314497458

I guess it's possible that a wealthy American buyer has treated themselves to a blingy bauble just in time for Christmas .... but I suspect it'll re-appear in the New Year, probably with the price increased to $10,000.  Reason I say that, is Igor appears to have similarly ended all his other current eBay listings, so I guess he didn't want to be bothered over the holiday period. Checking the other places he had the Jean Lassale Thalassa 7A74-011 listed, including his own website, there are currently no updates, stating that it's been sold. 

Reading the wording of Igor's advert on RubyLane.com (linked above), a few sentences made me smile to myself: 

I am the only one in the world offering one for sale on the Internet!!

You can occasionally find a model such as this one in stainless steel or stainless steel with 18K gold but you would have a very hard time finding one in solid 18K gold such as this one.

Do your own search on the Internet and see if you can buy one other than this one.

I am sure you will be the only one with this 18K gold model watch in your city, your state or even your country.

But his classic 'white elephant' gaffe  really gave me a good laugh.

This Thalasa (sic) is a "white elephant", no others around...

You see, while googling his (to see where else he had advertised it), I found past evidence of another 18ct gold Jean Lassale Thalassa 7A74-011. It was offered in a watch auction by Austrian auction house Dorotheum in May this year.

http://www.dorotheum.com/en/auctions/lotID/137/jean-lassale-thalassa.html

It's difficult to gauge the exact condition from the rather small images:

But it does appear to be in rather better (unpolished) condition than Igor's well-worn example. Note the auction description gives the weight as 175.8 grams, so presumably it has a couple of extra links in the bracelet. I signed into Dorotheum, hoping to learn what it might have sold for, but there's no more information than shown in my screen grab. Checking a few other watch lots in the same auction, some have 'price realized' against them. So although it doesn't actually state thus, I think it's safe to assume that the lot was passed without any bids being placed. Ironically, the opening bid price was 4000 Euros, equivalent to $4750 USD - almost exactly the same as the scrap gold value I'd calculated earlier. 

I note with mild amusement that US eBay seller afinewatch still hasn't managed to sell his grossly over-priced 18K Gold Jean Lassale Thalassa 7A74-011.  Igor's continued to re-list it, almost continuously for the last year - 10 days at a time. I noticed in his latest re-listing, in the early hours of this morning, he's recently* increased his risible 'pie-in-the-sky' Buy-it-Now price to the 'magic' $10,000.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/253988994936

*Not in this latest re-listing, but in fact the previous one - on 11th November.

Apart from the various saved searches I have set up on different auction platforms, every now and then I'll run a Google search on 'Jean Lassale Thalassa', just to see if there's anything interesting I might have missed. Almost without fail, that 18K gold 7A74-011, which went unsold in Dorotheum's May 2017 auction comes up in the results returned. Still kind of kicking myself for missing out on that one (I might actually have bid on it @ the opening 4000 Euros had I seen it at the time).

Regarding the sentence in my penultimate post:

It's difficult to gauge the exact condition from the rather small images:

Today I clicked on the link to the auction and found to my surprise that the primary image was clickable (the others are still rather small - averaging 400 x 250 pixels). I'm sure that wasn't the case before. So here it is, somewhat larger, in all its glory.

Meanwhile, the other 18K Gold 7A74-011, first listed by US eBay seller afinewatch, nearly 3½ years ago, in January 2016, not surprisingly, still remains unsold. In his latest re-listing, he's reinstated the 'Make Offer' option and judging by the fact that this one was created on March 27th, it looks like he's set it to automatically re-list every 30 days. Evidently in it for the long haul, eh Igor ?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254179719644

Having automatically re-listed it, for over a year, during which time it received some 1550 views, late yesterday evening, US eBay seller afinewatch ended his most recent re-listing for that  grossly over-priced 18K gold Jean Lassale Thalassa as once again, allegedly no longer available.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254179719644

No surprise, it's back on eBay again, re-listed this evening, for the umpteenth time.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254589614711

I've just noticed that US eBay seller afinewatch revised that most recent re-listing for his grossly over-priced 18K Gold Jean Lassale Thalassa 7A74-011 a week ago, on 26th June - increasing his already ridiculous 'pie-in-the-sky' Buy-it-Now price by another $1000 to $11,000 !!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254589614711

Note that he's surreptitiously removed the previous option to make an offer. He's also made a couple of changes to the ever-lengthening description, one of them presumably based on the current scrap 18K gold value (today: $42.89 / gram).

Note the sentence which I've outlined in red:

This is the only 18K solid gold Thalassa chronograph I could can find for sale on the Internet in the last few years.

He's obviously not been searching as diligently as I have ....

Remember that other 18K Gold Jean Lassale Thalassa 7A74-011, in rather better condition, which was listed by the Austrian auction house Dorotheum, three years ago, back in May 2017 ? Evidently, it has subsequently appeared in their online auction catalogues on at least two more occasions - the last time fairly recently too. (The primary image used was the same in all listings.)

Firstly on 10th October, 2019, with an opening bid price of €4500:

http://www.dorotheum.com/de/l/6414872/

Then again, on 9th March this year, with an increased opening bid price of €5500:

http://www.dorotheum.com/de/l/6630696/

On both these subsequent occasions, just as it did 3 years ago, it remained unsold:

I get a lot of upcoming auction notifications from Dorotheum. As I was somewhat otherwise occupied, buying Fred Force 10 7A38's (and a couple of other 'grails'), back in early October last year, I suspected I might possibly not have bothered to search their online catalogue. But to have missed it again in March ? So I ran a search on my old emails and despite having 'Armband und Taschenuhren' in my 'Interests' and a saved search on 'Jean Lassale Thalassa', it transpires that I'd not received any notification of either auction (neither upcoming nor a list of results).

Feeling a bit indignant, I emailed Marianne Maier of Dorotheum, who was the nominated 'Expert' on these last two auctions, enquiring why I hadn't received notifications. Her replies were fairly brief and admittedly a tad disappointing. 

Sorry but the watch was sold on 26. March 2020 followed by

It was sold for € 3.600, in the auction on 26.March 2020 ☹

Naturally, the first thing I did was to search my old emails for any notification. Was there any ? Of course not.  I tried searching Dorotheum and then using Google in a vain attempt to find the ended auction. The nearest I've managed to come up with is this Dorotheum Schmuck und Uhren auction which ended on 26th March, that comprised 214 lots, of which only the last 8 were actually watches. Strangely, there's no sign of a 18K Jean Lassale Thalassa among the few cheaper watches there. I've emailed Marianne back, asking for a link; she still hasn't replied.

Seiko7A38 at July 2, 2020 at 9:26 AM

I've just noticed that US eBay seller afinewatch revised that most recent re-listing for his grossly over-priced 18K Gold Jean Lassale Thalassa 7A74-011 a week ago, on 26th June - increasing his already ridiculous 'pie-in-the-sky' Buy-it-Now price by another $1000 to $11,000 !!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254589614711

The various re-listings for that risibly over-priced 7A74-011 18K Gold Jean Lassale Thalassa have been circulating on my eBay watching page for more than 4½ years, since it was first listed at the end of January 2016. Every now and then, when the current re-listing is due to end, they roll back around to the top of the first page.

Which is where this one is this morning. I obviously hadn't given it any more thought since - until I noticed the deluded would-be US eBay seller had further increased his ridiculous 'pie-in-the-sky' Buy-it-Now price by another $1000 - to $12,000 !!

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254589614711