Seiko 7A38 - by the numbers

I'm starting this topic as separate thread, in response to what may turn out to be two parallel lines of enquiry; hopefully in an effort to get to the bottom of this matter. It's generally accepted that Seiko 7T32's have three pushers (two on the left side of the case) and two crowns (the lower crown at 4 o'clock being used to set the alarm function, etc.) and that the 7T62, which superceded it, has a more conventional two pusher, one crown layout on the right with nothing on the left side of the case.

The issue first came to light (on this forum) in February 2015, when the following posts were made by Michael 'Killsnapz' on

page three of the Don`t be shy to show us your 7T32 thread. Here follows a copy and paste of the relevant posts:

Originally posted by Killsnapz on February 25, 2015 at 3:43 AM:

Could these be some of the rarest 7T32 branded models ever? I was first introduced to this model watch the 7T32-6K19 when I recieved one in a batch of parts watches. The bright color dial caught my eye and I bid and won several useful Seiko's for very little money. I was most interested in the yellow dialed 7T32. As soon as I picked it up I was confused as it only has one stem and two pushers but the back case was stamped 7T32-6K19. I opened it up to find what I expected a 7T62 inside. I assumed it was a parts watch but it still nagged me due to being such an unusual case with an unsual finish that someone was able to find a caseback that by all appearances looked like it belonged to this watch. Time goes by and a listing comes up for a 7T32-6K19 on eBay. Pictues clearly show one single stem and only two pushers. This was a running watch. I purchase this. I receive it and it is 100% identical to what I though was a franken watch but this one works. Now I start digging. On eBay i find a listing for a 7T32-6K19 watch. Pictures clearly showing two stems and three pushers? The seller wanted big money so I do not bid. About a month later another listing for the 7T32-6K19. This is being sold as running but not all functions work. Once again clearly one one stem and two pushers and a case back stamped 7T32-6K19. I win this auction also and once again an identical match for the other two watches. Furthur investigation yields several eBay listing for 7T32-6K19 watches all with two stems and three pushers. A lot of research later and I find the true number that the case back should have been stamped with: 7T62-0CL0. Still to this day I have yet to find a model 7T62-0CL0 stamped as such. Here are two of them.

Reply originally posted (by myself) on February 25, 2015 at 10:09 AM:

Michael.

I had already read the thread you posted about these yellow-dialed 7Txx's on SCWF in December last year:

http://www.thewatchsite.com/21-japanese-watch-discussion-forum/138858-more-seiko-rear-case-numbers-weirdness.html

I'm sorry to say, but like the other posters who replied, I'd be inclined to agree - that they are fakes - albeit very high quality fakes.

For the same reasons - fonts used for the case-back engraving, etc.

It's not the first time I've seen something like this. Going back maybe 5 years or so ago, when I had more time to look at 7Txx's and was still posting regularly on the UK RLT forum, I came across some expensive 'high quality' fake Seiko quartz chrono's on eBay. I can't remember now if they were 7T62's or V657's, but I remember they had distinctive green and blue dials and looked pretty convincing - apart from having Swiss Made printed at the bottom of their dials.

The same findings had been posted on the old Network54 SCWF. If I can find the relevant links to those threads, I'll add them in.

Edit: Here's the thread on the RLT forum from March 2010: http://www.thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=52506

and the earlier Network54 SCWF thread: http://www.network54.com/Forum/78440/thread/1205516532/What%27s+this.....---

Unfortunately I don't appear to have saved any of the photos. 

Response posted by Killsnapz on February 25, 2015 at 8:22 PM:

I'm not sure what the deal is with these watches. They do not match the description of the ones mentioned in the article. The dial is stamped made in Japan and then 7T62-0CV8 which comes back to a Seiko model number 7T62-0CL0. The band is stamped 4604ZG which also comes back to the same model number. All three watches have real 7T62 movements all the correct stampings on the inside of the rear cases and even the protective sticker. BUT I also noticed some quality issues with the dial that I don't think Seiko would have let pass inspection. They are very small imperfections on the dial printing. One is the letter "N" in Japan is slightly cut off by the dial opening for the alarm subdial. The larger indices that are topped with lume that mark ever 5 minute mark are slightly different lengths on the lume? This watch has to be one of the most expensive fake watches ever produced. All the numbers how up on both Boley's database and watch data with part numbers and all and the parts match the watch and the dial number match what is in the list. I didn't pay much for any of them and they run good because they are running a real 7T62 movement so I don't know what to think.

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As a couple of footnotes to the last two sentences of Michael 'Killsnapz' original post:

A lot of research later and I find the true number that the case back should have been stamped with: 7T62-0CL0.

Still to this day I have yet to find a model 7T62-0CL0 stamped as such.

.... here's the thumbnail images of 7T32-6K19 SDWC85P1 (left) and 7T62-0CL0 SNA281P9 (right) from Seiko's database:

Photos of both the 'correct' versions of 7T32-6K19 and 7T62-0CL0 can be found in this thread on the old Network54 SCWF:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/78440/thread/1268517553 Looking for info on this Chrono

The second possibly parallel enquiry (on this forum) came in the form of a recent introduction post made by new member 'Poacher':

Originally posted by Poacher on December 31, 2015 at 10:28 PM

(Intro') .... I'm the extremely proud owner of a 7T32-7E70 model, four push buttons and a crown. I know it's not a MOD issue watch, but, having spent 15 years at flying stations it appears very similar to what the aircrew wear. Not comes the tears. At some point about 7 months ago, I went to move the hands, and no moving. Down to the jewellers only to be told that the movement is shot and I need a new one. Brilliant £150 approx. As I loved it so much I said yes only 3 weeks later to be told Seiko don't make them anymore. Tears and more tears. So, how can this site help? I've managed to buy what I thought was a donor watch, 7T32-7F70, as I thought that it was the same apart from the F for the E. Only to find it only has 2 buttons and a crown. Is there anyone who can do a swap of movements for me for which I am quite willing to pay. I'm not worried if only 2 buttons work.    

Ian Wilkins

Scunthorpe

Ian.

Apart from your intro' part of your post (which I'll reply to presently, in the relevant thread), I've already replied to your query by email - in response to the contact form that you sent me yesterday. I'll say this once and once only. Please take the trouble to PROPERLY READ the information that is presented to you - particularly the links in my email reply.

The first thing we need to get straight is that your 7T32-7E70 does NOT have four push buttons and a crown.

It has THREE push buttons and TWO crowns. The 'pusher' at 4 o'clock is a (recessed) crown used for setting the alarm function.

I note that on your profile 'About Me' you have written: 'Unable to upload photo as I'm on an iPad'. That really is no excuse. 

There are other members of this forum whose only means of accessing the Internet is an iPad (or other hand-held, greasy fingered screen smearing device) and they manage to upload photos. For us to be able to help you, you need to help us.

If you can't provide accurate descriptions of the watches, then the easiest way is to upload photos of them.

As further background to the confusion that apparently exists between certain Seiko 7T32-xxxx and 7T62-xxxx models ....

you may recall that in my email to you yesterday, I wrote:

My other question (to you) would be: Are you sure you're not confusing a 7T32 with a 7T62 ?

There were several models where Seiko carried over the exact same case design, but changed the crown / pusher arrangement.

The one I always quote is the 7T32-7F80 and almost identical appearing 7T62-0CM0. Google images and you'll understand.

Here are the thumbnail images of 2 such 7T32-7F80's (left) and 2 7T62-0CM0's (right) from Seiko's database.

What intrigued me about your post and led me to believe that we may be looking at another 7T32-xxxx Fake, was that when I googled images on 7T32-7F70, what should come up in the results returned, but number of images of a yellow (and black) dialed 'Diver' bearing a certain resemblance to the watches Michael 'Killsnapz' had posted in February 2015 !!

Amongst other places, it appears in a couple of older threads on the RLT watch forum:

http://www.thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?/topic/57544 Couldn't resist this Yellow Beauty!

http://www.thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?/topic/87248 Win some, Lose some. 7T32 Mania!

Here's a few thumbnail images of different colour dial variants of 7T32-7F70 from Seiko's database.

And courtesy of KevKojak from one of those old RLT threads:

You'll notice that the yellow dialed 7T32-7F70 on the right bears a certain similarity to the 7T32-6K19 Fakes posted by 'Killsnapz' ....

Except that of course KevKojak's 7T32-7F70's have the correct 7T32 three pusher + two crown configuration.

So, Ian. $64K question to you: What does your 'two-pusher one crown' 7T32-7F70 actually look like ? 

Perhaps I should re-phrase that. 

Question: When is a 7T32 'with two pushers and one crown' not a 7T32 (of any kind: neither a 7T32-6K19 nor a 7T32-7F70) ?

Answer: Not as one might have expected (or dare I say hoped) that when it's another of these Fake / mis-identified 7T62's ....

But when it's a perfectly correct 7T92, specifically a 7T92-0FK0 - and not even one fitted with the wrong case-back (off a 7T32) !

I sometimes wonder why I bother ! 

Exit stage left, muttering to self about the  from Scunthorpe who by his incompetence lured me into wasting my morning ! 

I was in two minds as to whether to delete this thread. I'll leave it  for now, in case another 'two pusher 7T32' ever appears.