Possible substitute Orient J39 'Diver' bracelet found at last
Possible substitute Orient J39 'Diver' bracelet found at last
They may not be to everybody's taste, but one of my favourite non-Seiko 'Diver's are the Orient J39x01-70 range. Over the last 10 years or so, I've managed to amass a large collection of them. This is an old photo taken about a year ago.
I've bought a few more since then and when I eventually get around to finish rebuilding a couple of other restoration projects, I'll be able to completely fill all 24 slots of that aluminium carrying case. However, what always irks me, whenever I open that box, are the few 'lesser' examples fitted with non-original replacement bracelets. The correct original Orient bracelet is easy to identify from the vertical bar on alternate link sections, as seen on 14 of those 18.
I've bought a few more since then and when I eventually get around to finish rebuilding a couple of other restoration projects, I'll be able to completely fill all 24 slots of that aluminium carrying case. However, what always irks me, whenever I open that box, are the few 'lesser' examples fitted with non-original replacement bracelets. The correct original Orient bracelet is easy to identify from the vertical bar on alternate link sections, as seen on 14 of those 18.
Re: Possible substitute Orient J39 'Diver' bracelet found at last
Even a couple of those fourteen are fitted with what I consider less than satisfactory original bracelets, being the two two-tone J39001-70's, second and third in from the left in the bottom row, both of which incidentally I've fitted with longer non-original Orient 8-hole adjustment clasps to compensate for lack of adjustment links.
Notice the third link on the left of the champagne dial and the fifth link from the left of the light grey dial (besides the general sloppiness of both bracelets). Both those links sit proud, rather than flush with their adjoining links, when worn on the wrist. The Orient p/n SA160 is similar in many respects to most Seiko 7Axx bracelets of the period, being of the same folded link construction. So just like their more illustrious counterparts, they suffer from distortion, stretching and wear of the small U-section interconnecting links. Here's a close-up of said distorted stretched link component between the 5th and 6th link sections of that grey-dialed J39001-70's bracelet.
Once they reach this condition, if not treated with utmost care, the bracelet will ultimately break.
Notice the third link on the left of the champagne dial and the fifth link from the left of the light grey dial (besides the general sloppiness of both bracelets). Both those links sit proud, rather than flush with their adjoining links, when worn on the wrist. The Orient p/n SA160 is similar in many respects to most Seiko 7Axx bracelets of the period, being of the same folded link construction. So just like their more illustrious counterparts, they suffer from distortion, stretching and wear of the small U-section interconnecting links. Here's a close-up of said distorted stretched link component between the 5th and 6th link sections of that grey-dialed J39001-70's bracelet.
Once they reach this condition, if not treated with utmost care, the bracelet will ultimately break.
Re: Possible substitute Orient J39 'Diver' bracelet found at last
Which probably goes some way to to explaining why you'll sometimes see 'lesser' examples of Orient J39x01-70 offered for sale, fitted with non-original bracelets, or more commonly for reasons best known to the sellers, on leather straps. Indeed, in the early phase of my collecting spree, I've bought a couple like that myself.
Here's that same champagne dialed J39001-70 as listed on eBay Germany in July 2010, fitted with a leather strap.
Before I'd even received it, I started looking around for a suitable replacement bracelet, ideally an Orient branded one.
Initially as a stop gap, I first fitted a Seiko p/n B1688S bracelet, which had seen duty on my original 7A38-701B 'Vulcan'.
I later bought a couple these cheap two-tone 'fishbone' style (subsequently robbed of their 8-hole adjustment clasps).
Slight problem, in that these bracelets were only 18mm fitment (versus the 20mm lug width of the Orient J39x01-70 case). I got round the problem by fitting a pair of small 1.0mm thick Teflon spacers on the ends of the spring bars.
Whereas they sort of 'worked' and I indeed kept the watch like that for a good few years, I eventually bought another J39001-70 'parts watch', solely for it's SA160 bracelet, which turned out to be too short (lacking sufficient adjustment links), so I fitted it, along with the Orient 8-hole adjustment clasp, that I conveniently borrowed from the 'fishbone'.
Here's that same champagne dialed J39001-70 as listed on eBay Germany in July 2010, fitted with a leather strap.
Before I'd even received it, I started looking around for a suitable replacement bracelet, ideally an Orient branded one.
Initially as a stop gap, I first fitted a Seiko p/n B1688S bracelet, which had seen duty on my original 7A38-701B 'Vulcan'.
I later bought a couple these cheap two-tone 'fishbone' style (subsequently robbed of their 8-hole adjustment clasps).
Slight problem, in that these bracelets were only 18mm fitment (versus the 20mm lug width of the Orient J39x01-70 case). I got round the problem by fitting a pair of small 1.0mm thick Teflon spacers on the ends of the spring bars.
Whereas they sort of 'worked' and I indeed kept the watch like that for a good few years, I eventually bought another J39001-70 'parts watch', solely for it's SA160 bracelet, which turned out to be too short (lacking sufficient adjustment links), so I fitted it, along with the Orient 8-hole adjustment clasp, that I conveniently borrowed from the 'fishbone'.
Re: Possible substitute Orient J39 'Diver' bracelet found at last
Then of course there was the Wimstore 'freebee' J39701-70, which I wrote up at some length in this old forum thread. Apart from the fact that the Austrian vendor generously 'gave it away', literally at no charge, that one was unusual, because although the watch head was in virtually NOS condition, strangely it also came fitted with a leather strap.
For want of anything more suitable, I fitted a NOS Seiko p/n G1410S bracelet to that one and although it was far from being short of adjustment links (full length in fact), I customized it by adding another Orient 8-hole adjustment clasp.
Despite having since acquired three NOS examples of the black-dialed Orient J39701-70, on the correct SA160 bracelet, that watch, 'wrong un' as it may be, remains a firm favourite amongst my collection, not just for sentimental reasons, but because it's probably the most successful substitute replacement bracelet I've found, in terms of fit and finish.
Checking my spreadsheet records, I paid $49.99 for that Seiko p/n G1410S bracelet back in July 2011. It seemed rather expensive at the time. I distinctly remember the Hong Kong eBay seller had two of them for sale. I debated buying the second one, but dallied and left it too late. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Since then, I've resorted to fitting those cheap and nasty 'Feiko' 20mm aftermarket bracelets to any Orient J39x01-70's that needed one. It's ironic that their basic design appears to have been blatantly copied from the Seiko p/n G1410S.
Besides their very rough finish, which makes them uncomfortable to wear, you need to keep an eye on their clasps.
That retaining pin literally fell out, just as I was taking the watch off after a wrist shot. The ends of the pin are now soldered up to prevent a recurrence. Note also the rust on the ends of some links, indicating lower quality 'stainless'.
For want of anything more suitable, I fitted a NOS Seiko p/n G1410S bracelet to that one and although it was far from being short of adjustment links (full length in fact), I customized it by adding another Orient 8-hole adjustment clasp.
Despite having since acquired three NOS examples of the black-dialed Orient J39701-70, on the correct SA160 bracelet, that watch, 'wrong un' as it may be, remains a firm favourite amongst my collection, not just for sentimental reasons, but because it's probably the most successful substitute replacement bracelet I've found, in terms of fit and finish.
Checking my spreadsheet records, I paid $49.99 for that Seiko p/n G1410S bracelet back in July 2011. It seemed rather expensive at the time. I distinctly remember the Hong Kong eBay seller had two of them for sale. I debated buying the second one, but dallied and left it too late. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Since then, I've resorted to fitting those cheap and nasty 'Feiko' 20mm aftermarket bracelets to any Orient J39x01-70's that needed one. It's ironic that their basic design appears to have been blatantly copied from the Seiko p/n G1410S.
Besides their very rough finish, which makes them uncomfortable to wear, you need to keep an eye on their clasps.
That retaining pin literally fell out, just as I was taking the watch off after a wrist shot. The ends of the pin are now soldered up to prevent a recurrence. Note also the rust on the ends of some links, indicating lower quality 'stainless'.
Re: Possible substitute Orient J39 'Diver' bracelet found at last
It goes without saying that I've been searching for the proper Orient p/n SA160 for 10 years and more, without success.
Despite having saved eBay worldwide searches on 'Orient SA160' and 'Orient 20mm bracelet', they and endless fruitless Google searches have failed to turn up anything vaguely resembling one.
That was until a couple of weeks ago, when in a moment of boredom, I ran a search on just the word 'Orient' on eBay Italy, in case my saved searches had missed anything. They had as it transpires, simply because of the way the seller had composed their title, with "ORIENT" (in inverted commas); a gap between '20' and 'MM' and 'CINTURINO' instead of bracelet (or bracialle) !
https://www.ebay.it/itm/CINTURINO-OROLO ... 4541456337
The relevant part of the description reads:
CINTURINO IN ACCIAIO ORIENT ANSA, ATTACCO ALLA CASSA 20 MM
LARGHEZZA MASSIMA 23 MM, LUNGHEZZA CINTURINO: 150 MM
PESO BRACCIALE 39 GR CIRCA. RIMANENZA DI MAGAZZINO
I studied the photos for a short time. The links appeared to be of the right curved cross-section with that instantly recognizable vertical bar motif on alternate links, although there were only 22 present, compared to the usual 23 of a p/n SA160. The widest link was stated in the seller's description as being the right 23mm, as was the 20mm lug fitting. The short Orient clasp looked similar, but with a slightly differently stamped logo. All that really briefly concerned me was that the bracelet fixing tubes were also noticeably quite different. But I reckoned it would probably do the trick.
Despite having saved eBay worldwide searches on 'Orient SA160' and 'Orient 20mm bracelet', they and endless fruitless Google searches have failed to turn up anything vaguely resembling one.
That was until a couple of weeks ago, when in a moment of boredom, I ran a search on just the word 'Orient' on eBay Italy, in case my saved searches had missed anything. They had as it transpires, simply because of the way the seller had composed their title, with "ORIENT" (in inverted commas); a gap between '20' and 'MM' and 'CINTURINO' instead of bracelet (or bracialle) !
https://www.ebay.it/itm/CINTURINO-OROLO ... 4541456337
The relevant part of the description reads:
CINTURINO IN ACCIAIO ORIENT ANSA, ATTACCO ALLA CASSA 20 MM
LARGHEZZA MASSIMA 23 MM, LUNGHEZZA CINTURINO: 150 MM
PESO BRACCIALE 39 GR CIRCA. RIMANENZA DI MAGAZZINO
I studied the photos for a short time. The links appeared to be of the right curved cross-section with that instantly recognizable vertical bar motif on alternate links, although there were only 22 present, compared to the usual 23 of a p/n SA160. The widest link was stated in the seller's description as being the right 23mm, as was the 20mm lug fitting. The short Orient clasp looked similar, but with a slightly differently stamped logo. All that really briefly concerned me was that the bracelet fixing tubes were also noticeably quite different. But I reckoned it would probably do the trick.
Re: Possible substitute Orient J39 'Diver' bracelet found at last
After a brief deliberation, I added it to my eBay watching page and went to hit the Buy-it-Now button; only to find to my annoyance, that the seller was blocking bids from outside Italy !! So I promptly sent them a message, asking if they'd be prepared to ship to England. Not long afterwards I received the disappointing reply I'd been half expecting:
Not one to give up so easily, that same Friday afternoon, I blasted off a quick email to Michele of Segnatempo, who has kindly acted as 'middle man' for me on a couple of previous occasions, asking him to buy it on my behalf. There was no reply. Turns out that he'd gone away for the weekend. By the following Monday morning (26th July), I was beginning to get nervous. The listing had by then received 50 views and had gained two other watchers, besides myself.
Thankfully, Michele returned home later that Monday evening, read my frantic messages and did the business.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/154541456337
Michele received it yesterday and posted it off to me this morning. So I guess I'll receive it sometime early next week.
Not one to give up so easily, that same Friday afternoon, I blasted off a quick email to Michele of Segnatempo, who has kindly acted as 'middle man' for me on a couple of previous occasions, asking him to buy it on my behalf. There was no reply. Turns out that he'd gone away for the weekend. By the following Monday morning (26th July), I was beginning to get nervous. The listing had by then received 50 views and had gained two other watchers, besides myself.
Thankfully, Michele returned home later that Monday evening, read my frantic messages and did the business.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/154541456337
Michele received it yesterday and posted it off to me this morning. So I guess I'll receive it sometime early next week.
Re: Possible substitute Orient J39 'Diver' bracelet found at last
Looking again at my stainless two-tone J39001-70 with the champagne dial reminded me how rough it was. I'm fortunate that my collection also includes a NOS gunmetal two-tone J39601-70 with the same champagne dial, so it doesn't worry me too much. That said, I did see what appeared to a better example on eBay Germany fairly recently - at the end of April. Funnily enough, it was fitted with a beige leather strap, intended to match the dial colour, which frankly made it look a bit 'girly'. IIRC, It was a 5-day auction with an opening bid price of 1 Euro. I'd obviously intended to comment on it at the time, because I took this screenshot of the listing. I must have got side-tracked, because I didn't before now.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ORIENT-by-SE ... 3744526084
Whereas I would have liked to have bid on it, the German eBay seller zeigerwelt was blocking bids from UK. That apart, I've long suspected that they're another exponent of shill bidding. Unfortunately although I managed to find the eBay item number (in the non-working link), being well past the 60-day expiry date, the detail of the listing has since been wiped from eBay history. Remiss of me, I seem to have overlooked taking a screenshot of the ended listing summary, but a quick search on their feedback reveals it sold for 140.70 Euros - more than I would have been prepared to pay.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ORIENT-by-SE ... 3744526084
Whereas I would have liked to have bid on it, the German eBay seller zeigerwelt was blocking bids from UK. That apart, I've long suspected that they're another exponent of shill bidding. Unfortunately although I managed to find the eBay item number (in the non-working link), being well past the 60-day expiry date, the detail of the listing has since been wiped from eBay history. Remiss of me, I seem to have overlooked taking a screenshot of the ended listing summary, but a quick search on their feedback reveals it sold for 140.70 Euros - more than I would have been prepared to pay.
Re: Possible substitute Orient J39 'Diver' bracelet found at last
That two-tone stainless champagne dialed Orient J39001-70 probably would have gone well with my incoming bracelet. Oh well you can't win 'em all.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/MEN-S-ORIENT-W ... 5250855970
Indeed, as a consolation prize, I bought another one this time yesterday evening, on a whim - for less than $50.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/MEN-S-ORIENT-W ... 5250855970
Re: Possible substitute Orient J39 'Diver' bracelet found at last
Subtitled: Close, but no cigar - no substitute, more of a genuine 'dog end'.
Michele's jiffy bag contained a paper packet (and purchase receipt) from a B&M jewellery store in Ozzano dell'Emilia (the same location given by the Italian eBay seller gold-tictac). Gioielleria Nassetti are a long-established family run jewellery retail and repair business and have a website (albeit a little dated): http://www.gioiellerianassetti.it/
Taking it out of their packet, at first glance, the bracelet looked much as I'd expected it to - like an Orient p/n SA160.
You can tell it was attacked with a Dremel cut-off wheel and grinding discs (rather than jeweller's files), not only from the crudeness of finish and poor workmanship, but also the heat marks. It's certainly NOT 'Nuovo senza etichette' !!
Unfortunately, ever the gentleman, Michele has already left them a positive feedback for his purchase on my behalf.
The postman delivered Michele's package containing the long-awaited eagerly anticipated Orient bracelet this morning. Given my current run of bad luck and with Friday the 13th looming tomorrow, I should have known what to expect.Seiko7A38 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:12 pmhttps://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/154541456337
Michele received it yesterday and posted it off to me this morning. So I guess I'll receive it sometime early next week.
Michele's jiffy bag contained a paper packet (and purchase receipt) from a B&M jewellery store in Ozzano dell'Emilia (the same location given by the Italian eBay seller gold-tictac). Gioielleria Nassetti are a long-established family run jewellery retail and repair business and have a website (albeit a little dated): http://www.gioiellerianassetti.it/
Taking it out of their packet, at first glance, the bracelet looked much as I'd expected it to - like an Orient p/n SA160.
Except the ends weren't different in the sense I'd anticipated - they've been butchered by some botcher with a Dremel !
You can tell it was attacked with a Dremel cut-off wheel and grinding discs (rather than jeweller's files), not only from the crudeness of finish and poor workmanship, but also the heat marks. It's certainly NOT 'Nuovo senza etichette' !!
Unfortunately, ever the gentleman, Michele has already left them a positive feedback for his purchase on my behalf.
Re: Possible substitute Orient J39 'Diver' bracelet found at last
Regardless, I'd already decided which of my lesser condition Orient J39001-70's was going to 'benefit' from this bracelet. I can't remember whether I've previously posted a photo of it in this forum's WRUW thread, but I'd certainly done so on the old archived forum. This wrist shot was taken in February 2020.
It's what I term a 'bitza' / bit of a beater, for obvious reasons. In its most recent form, up until this morning, it had been fitted with one of those cheap 'Feiko' 20mm aftermarket bracelets (with an Orient 16mm 5-hole adjustment clasp).
This 'bitza' J39001-70 has gone through a few different iterations during its 10 years in my ownership. I bought it off eBay Germany, where many of my earlier acquisitions came from, comparatively cheaply in March 2011, winning an auction for a mere 24.74 Euros. It came fitted with an inappropriate leather strap, which was promptly binned !
It's here at bottom right corner of this shot of my then budding collection of J39x01-70 'divers' taken in September 2014:
At that stage, it was still fitted with a black leather strap (but different to the glossy patent 'mock croc' alligator grain it came with, likely donated by the Wimstore 'freebee' to the left of it, which had long since been fitted with a NOS Seiko p/n G1410S bracelet). Some time later, I replaced that with one of those 'Feiko' 20mm aftermarket bracelets.
Then in October 2019, I suffered a rush of blood to the head (and the Buy-it-Now button finger) and bought this:
As, by 2020, I already had more than enough two-tone J39001-70's with black dials, I transplanted that light grey dial / movement (and Tachymeter ring) into the better condition watch case (leaving me with a spare black dial / movement, which incidentally will possibly soon come in handy). Hence the 'bitza' tag - albeit now a rather expensive one.
It's what I term a 'bitza' / bit of a beater, for obvious reasons. In its most recent form, up until this morning, it had been fitted with one of those cheap 'Feiko' 20mm aftermarket bracelets (with an Orient 16mm 5-hole adjustment clasp).
This 'bitza' J39001-70 has gone through a few different iterations during its 10 years in my ownership. I bought it off eBay Germany, where many of my earlier acquisitions came from, comparatively cheaply in March 2011, winning an auction for a mere 24.74 Euros. It came fitted with an inappropriate leather strap, which was promptly binned !
It's here at bottom right corner of this shot of my then budding collection of J39x01-70 'divers' taken in September 2014:
At that stage, it was still fitted with a black leather strap (but different to the glossy patent 'mock croc' alligator grain it came with, likely donated by the Wimstore 'freebee' to the left of it, which had long since been fitted with a NOS Seiko p/n G1410S bracelet). Some time later, I replaced that with one of those 'Feiko' 20mm aftermarket bracelets.
Then in October 2019, I suffered a rush of blood to the head (and the Buy-it-Now button finger) and bought this:
As, by 2020, I already had more than enough two-tone J39001-70's with black dials, I transplanted that light grey dial / movement (and Tachymeter ring) into the better condition watch case (leaving me with a spare black dial / movement, which incidentally will possibly soon come in handy). Hence the 'bitza' tag - albeit now a rather expensive one.
Re: Possible substitute Orient J39 'Diver' bracelet found at last
Here's a slightly different, equally unflattering shot of that J39001-70 to the one I posted in the WRUW thread earlier.
Here's an even less flattering angle, showing the butchery of the bracelet's end fixing tube with exposed spring bar:
Still, I suppose even a butchered genuine Orient p/n SA160 bracelet is better than a 'Feiko' 20mm aftermarket one.
Here's an even less flattering angle, showing the butchery of the bracelet's end fixing tube with exposed spring bar:
Still, I suppose even a butchered genuine Orient p/n SA160 bracelet is better than a 'Feiko' 20mm aftermarket one.