Credor 7T72 - the ultimate incarnation of the Seiko 7T32 ?

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Credor 7T72 - the ultimate incarnation of the Seiko 7T32 ?

Post by Seiko7A38 »

Among cognoscenti, Seiko's Credor top luxury brand arguably shares equal respect and ranking with its better known Grand Seiko sibling and in some respects has eclipsed it. Although the two brand's ethos are actually quite different. This excellent blog article GRAND SEIKO AND CREDOR, THE TWO FACES OF THE SAME COIN. explores the differences.

Nowadays, Credor are probably best known for producing artisan quality mechanical marvels, such as their exquisite Fugakau, the Spring Drive Sonnerie and Minute Repeater, but the brand's beginnings were rather less auspicious. Here's Credor's history according to parent company Seiko, with a milestones and a few noticeable gaps. The brand originally was created in 1974 as Crête D'or (meaning Gold Crest). Volume production of watches ramped up from 1978, with the first Credor JDM catalogue printed in 1980. They started off manufacturing watches in precious metals, using existing available Seiko quartz movements. It begs the question why they ever entertained producing a Credor version of the humble 7T32, when a solid 18K gold version already existed, in the form of the classic-looking 7T32-6C70 SDW162:

7T32-6C70-SDW162-18K-Gold-SCWF-Oct2009.jpg
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Reference old forum's Thalassa 7A74 thread intro (for Lassale 7T32 stuff).

In this 1989 advert, Seiko attempted to give the white dialed version of the Lassale-branded 7T32 something of an air of exclusivity:

Lassale-advert-1989.jpg
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(Note the 5th Avenue address.)


Verbiage to be fleshed out later - post still under construction. :idea:


There are other parallels that can be drawn with Seiko's Lassale and 'Swiss' branded Jean Lassale operations ....

Remember how the Jean Lassale 7A74A movement turned out to be little more than a mundane Seiko 7A34A movement (albeit one fitted with a differently oriented date wheel) and gold anodized back-plate ? Following the same logic and nomenclature, does that mean that the Credor 7T72B is nothing more than a common-or-garden Seiko 7T32B movement with a gold anodized back-plate ? :o

See: https://www.watchprosite.com/seiko/intr ... .10073526/ 7T72 Chronograph, date, alarm and NO JEWELS.

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Edit: I later found this sequence of (9) photos of a 7T72B movement in an ended Yahoo Japan listing:

Credor-7T72-6A10-YahooJapan-Movement.jpg
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There wasn't any doubt in my mind, but here's proof positive that they're from the same family of Seiko movements. 8-) Below is an edit of a screenshot that I'd previously posted somewhere in a thread on the old forum. The familiar tabular format is from the original version of Seiko Oceania's database. It's a reverse look-up (where used) on Seiko p/n 0802580 (the 7Txx plastic date changeover wheel). I hadn't noticed the 7T72B at the bottom of the results returned before. :oops:

SeikoOz-WhereUsed-pn-0802580-7T72B.png
SeikoOz-WhereUsed-pn-0802580-7T72B.png (37.23 KiB) Viewed 2949 times

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Re: Credor 7T72 - the ultimate incarnation of the Seiko 7T32 ?

Post by Seiko7A38 »

I found this old thread on SCWF about Credor pricing anomalies - which nobody ever bothered to answer. :roll:

https://www.thewatchsite.com/threads/cr ... ge.316867/

Credor-PricingQuestion-SCWF-Post.png
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I suspect much of it is due simply to depreciation. :| Indeed, here are perfect examples of two such extremes:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/JDM%20Seiko%20 ... 2163395280

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Compared to a NOS example of the same 7T72-6A00 GCLE998, currently listed on Mercari.jp asking 240,000 Yen !! :shock:

https://www.mercari.com/jp/items/m47576745065/

Credor-7T72-6A00-GCLE998-Mercari.jp.png
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Translating the Japanese description reveals: Manufacturer's suggested retail price: 270,000 yen (excluding tax) ! :o

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Re: Credor 7T72 - the ultimate incarnation of the Seiko 7T32 ?

Post by Seiko7A38 »

Before today, I hadn't given the 7T72 movement a thought and was blissfully unaware that it was a Credor movement. What prompted my investigation was this well-worn example listed on eBay earlier this afternoon by Australian eBay seller f1models, as a 7-day auction with an opening bid price of $799.50 Au.:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1999-Seiko-C ... 4794303456

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The seller appeared to be in a hurry to get it listed on eBay and hadn't bothered to clean the encrusted filth from the bracelet. Bit of an oversight in these times of COVID-19. He subsequently revised the listing, uploading 12 new photos:

rsz_credor-7t72-6a00-stainless-gold-ebay-may2021-re-seller-revisedphotos-1.jpg
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It's looks better than before, but is still a long way from being spotlessly clean. :roll:
rsz_credor-7t72-6a00-stainless-gold-ebay-may2021-re-seller-revisedphotos-7.jpg
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Note "There is a small chip in the sapphire (crystal) at just past twelve."

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Re: Credor 7T72 - the ultimate incarnation of the Seiko 7T32 ?

Post by Seiko7A38 »

I thought I'd run a quick closed search on ended listings on Yahoo Japan, to get some idea of their recent selling prices.

Credor-7T72-6A00-Credor-YahooJapan-Ended-Listings-Summary-X4.png
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Quel surprise (not) - what should be among the results ? :lol:

https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/m485438848

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Note: There is a small chip in the sapphire crystal at two minutes past twelve (in exactly the same place). :lol:

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Re: Credor 7T72 - the ultimate incarnation of the Seiko 7T32 ?

Post by Seiko7A38 »

I've been trying to put some timeframes on the Credor 7T72's manufacture. Scrolling through the blog article which I linked in my first post, the writer implies that the Pacifique line was created in 1993. A number of different models have shared a very similar case design to the 7T72-6A00, including quartz, kinetic and automatic powered watches.

Credor-Pacifique-Line-Ikigai-Blog-1993.jpg
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Some, like this GCAR035 Pacifique powered by Credor's 8J81A 5 jewel quartz movement, owned by Australian collector Anthony Kable, possibly have 18K white gold cases (rather than stainless). See the subsequent update to his SCWF post.

I've spent some time googling and best I can establish, there were only two basic 7T72-xxxx case and bracelet designs: the 7T72-6A00 (already discussed) and the slightly less elaborate all-stainless 7T72-6A10, which came on a Tag Heuer style bracelet, in a greater variety of dial colours* including dark blue, dark green and burgundy (with silver subdials). The -6A10 scores over the -6A00 in that it has Pacifique 'Sea Lion' logo engraved case-back, whereas the '00's is plain. Incidentally, despite the claimed 10 Bar WR, the case-backs of both variants are only snap-in - not screw-down. :!:

Credor-7T72-6A10-Stainless-Pacifique-Case-back.jpg
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The 56xxxx serial number of that particular Credor Pacifique 7T72-6A10 indicates a manufacturing date of June 1995. The Credor 7T72-6A00 listed on eBay yesterday has a serial number 920020, which the Australian seller has (I believe) correctly assumed to be February 1999.

*I haven't yet managed to find any catalogue images of them, but further googling (of ended auctions) reveals that the dark green dial was sales code GCLE993; the dark blue dial was GCLE995, so the burgundy dial may have been GCLE994.

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Re: Credor 7T72 - the ultimate incarnation of the Seiko 7T32 ?

Post by Seiko7A38 »

I must admit that I find the 7T72-6A00 GCLE998 quite an attractive design. Australian eBay seller f1models well-worn ex-Yahoo Japan example, with its multitude of tiny dings hardly does it justice. I've been searching for some decent photos of a better condition example. Most are ended sold listings on Japanese websites and typically include small images (640x480). I found these few here - more by luck than judgement, because they'd got the case model number slightly wrong (written as Ref.7T72-5A00 SS/YG QZ). The clickable full size photos measure 1500x1000 pixels.

rsz_credor-7t72-6a00-stainless-gold-whiteface-gcle998-1.jpg
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I may be taken by them, but it's just a passing fancy. Please rest assured readers, there is absolutely no way I would ever consider paying 'Jean Lassale Thalassa 7A74 money', for what is effectively a tarted-up re-branded Seiko 7T32. ;)

PS - there's also an equally alluring black dialed version of the 7T72-6A00, sales product code GCLE996. I've found quite a few small-ish photos of a couple of examples, such as this. If I find anything larger, I'll add them onto this thread later.

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Re: Credor 7T72 - the ultimate incarnation of the Seiko 7T32 ?

Post by Seiko7A38 »

Naturally I also trawled Soshul Meedya. A search on the Instagram hashtag #credorpacifique returns two dozen results, but no 7T72's. I didn't really expect there to be anything on YouTube, but searching on only '7T72' (just as well I did, because he's got the model number suffix wrong) I found this rather uninspiring video uploaded by a Japanese poster. He waffles on for 4 minutes (in Japanese), but doesn't make any attempt to demonstrate the chronograph functions.

Credor-7T72-6A00-Stainless+Gold-GCLE998-YouTube.jpg
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Re: Credor 7T72 - the ultimate incarnation of the Seiko 7T32 ?

Post by Seiko7A38 »

I'm a bit late to the party in re-discovering these. :oops: Forum member hi_bri Brian had trodden the path long before me. Back in June 2016, he created a thread entitled: Seiko Credor 1998-2002 on WatchuSeek. His post #6 included photos of what appear to be catalogue images, although he describes them as coming from Japanese Watch World magazines.
Seiko7A38 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 7:50 am.... the Pacifique line was created in 1993. A number of different models have shared a very similar case design to the 7T72-6A00, including quartz, kinetic and automatic powered watches.
As rapidly becomes evident as soon as you click on the first 5 thumbnails in Brian's post. ;)

Credor-Pacifique-WatchUseek-hi_bri-Post.png
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The third photo down is of the two variants of 7T72-6A00: GCLE996 and GCLE998. Here's a zoom and crop of his photo:

rsz_credor-pacifique-watchuseek-hi_bri-post-7t72-6a00-x2-post.jpg
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The image captions confirm the recommended retail price of ¥270,000 Yen. (万円 is Japanese kanji for 10,000 Yen).

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Re: Credor 7T72 - the ultimate incarnation of the Seiko 7T32 ?

Post by Seiko7A38 »

Seiko7A38 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 7:50 amI've been trying to put some timeframes on the Credor 7T72's manufacture.

I haven't yet managed to find any catalogue images of them, but further googling (of ended auctions) reveals that the dark green dial was sales code GCLE993; the dark blue dial was GCLE995, so the burgundy dial may have been GCLE994.
One can carry on vainly googling ad nauseam. But if you're seeking such specialist knowledge and the definitive answer, there really is only one proverbial oracle to consult. Australian aficionado, Seiko collector extraordinaire and owner of the superb Plus9Time blog - Anthony Kable.

Plus9Time-Blog-Header.jpg
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I'd searched his blog and numerous well-crafted posts on SCWF and although he was evidently familiar with the Credor Pacifique range, I couldn't find any reference to the 7T72. So on Wednesday, I dropped Anthony a PM via SCWF, asking his help. Overnight I received this comprehensive email reply from him:

Credor-7T72-6Axx-Chronographs-AnthonyKable-email(redacted).png
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As you can see, Anthony kindly attached 3 full page scans from Credor's 1994 and 1996 catalogues. Unfortunately they're rather too large (@ 1.2MB apiece) to upload as complete full page attachments, so I've cropped out the relevant halves from pages 16 and 18 of the 1996 catalogue.

Credor-1996-Page16-Pacifique-7T72-6A00-x2-Crop.jpg
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Transpires there were only those 3 dial colour variations of 7T72-6A10 produced, which I'd already found by googling.
Seiko7A38 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 7:50 am*I haven't yet managed to find any catalogue images of them, but further googling (of ended auctions) reveals that the dark green dial was sales code GCLE993; the dark blue dial was GCLE995, so the burgundy dial may have been GCLE994.
However, I incorrectly interpolated the sales code for the burgundy dial - it's GCLE991. Note these were marketed as 'PACIFIQUE SPORTS' models, rather than just 'PACIFIQUE'. Their recommended retail price in 1996 of 150,000 Yen is somewhat lower than the 270,000 Yen of their more illustrious 7T72-6A00 siblings, but that's still an ambitious price (equivalent to $1425 US today) for what is effectively nothing more than a re-branded stainless 7T32 (with a dubious choice of dial colour options). Anthony wrote in his email: "In the 1997 catalog the blue GCLE995 has disappeared ...." (being the obvious most popular choice of dial colour). You can still find unsold NOS examples of the burgundy dialed GCLE991 and dark green dialed GCLE993 to this day.

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Re: Credor 7T72 - the ultimate incarnation of the Seiko 7T32 ?

Post by Seiko7A38 »

Seiko7A38 wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 5:12 pmWhat prompted my investigation was this well-worn example listed on eBay earlier this afternoon by Australian eBay seller f1models, as a 7-day auction with an opening bid price of $799.50 Au.:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1999-Seiko-C ... 4794303456

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Not surprisingly, the re-seller's listing for the well-worn ex-Yahoo Japan Credor Pacifique 7T72-6A00 failed to attract a bid. He re-listed it as another 7-day auction with the same over-ambitious opening bid price of $799.50 Au. Checking my eBay watching page, I noticed he'd ended the re-listing early, as allegedly no longer available, earlier this morning. :roll:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/353492505304

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Re: Credor 7T72 - the ultimate incarnation of the Seiko 7T32 ?

Post by Seiko7A38 »

Note how I'd written 'allegedly'. ;) This seller is all too fond of playing shenanigans with his eBay listings. His well-worn ex-Yahoo Japan Credor Pacifique 7T72-6A00 is back on eBay, re-listed again this morning as another 7-day auction.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/353503086216

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Re: Credor 7T72 - the ultimate incarnation of the Seiko 7T32 ?

Post by Seiko7A38 »

Seiko7A38 wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 8:10 amI may be taken by them, but it's just a passing fancy. Please rest assured readers, there is absolutely no way I would ever consider paying 'Jean Lassale Thalassa 7A74 money', for what is effectively a tarted-up re-branded Seiko 7T32. ;)

PS - there's also an equally alluring black dialed version of the 7T72-6A00, sales product code GCLE996. I've found quite a few small-ish photos of a couple of examples, such as this. If I find anything larger, I'll add them into this post later.
I'll reiterate what I wrote earlier - and that is that I have absolutely no intention of ever buying one of these expensive effectively re-branded 7T32's. That said, I do find them attractive. Out of curiosity, I ran a search on Yahoo Japan this morning, to see if any more had turned up since. This black-dialed GCLE996 was listed a couple of days ago, as a 7-day no reserve auction with an opening bid price of 1 Yen. There appears to be a fair bit of interest, with bidding already having reached 25,500 Yen (plus 10% Sales tax).

https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/n470701343

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When I first saw the listing, I got that uncanny feeling of Déjà Vu (wrongly this time, as it transpires). Remember the summary of recently ended Yahoo Japan listings, that I posted higher up the page ? Atop the screenshot was this one.

https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/q435678518

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Same YJ 'Store' seller ecoworld2016. Very similar primary images and black backgrounds to 3 out of the 4 photos ....

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My initial knee-jerk reaction was that it was a re-listing - until I bothered to compare the photos and descriptions. :oops:
It's clearly a different watch. That well-worn 7T72-6A00 GCLE996, which sold on 4th May for 53,240 Yen (including tax) had a very short bracelet (16cm). The YJ seller classified it a Rank 1 - Junk ! They rate the currently listed example as Rank 4 (Somewhat Good product with damage / dirt but good degree). It also has 4 more adjustment links present in the bracelet (19.5cm). That would comfortably fit my 7½" wrist. :mrgreen:

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Re: Credor 7T72 - the ultimate incarnation of the Seiko 7T32 ?

Post by Seiko7A38 »

The current Yahoo Japan 7-day auction for a Credor 7T72-6A00 GCLE996 ended on schedule a few moments ago, with bidding @ ¥51,550 Yen after 42 bids. Adding 10% Japanese sales tax gives a total of ¥56,650 Yen, equivalent to approx. $520.20 USD / £367.40 GBP.

https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/n470701343

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In view of its better cosmetic condition and full length bracelet (comprising 24 links), one might have expected it to have achieved a rather higher selling price compared to it's 'junk' predecessor. :|

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Re: Credor 7T72 - the ultimate incarnation of the Seiko 7T32 ?

Post by Seiko7A38 »

Seiko7A38 wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 8:10 amI've found quite a few small-ish photos .... If I find anything larger, I'll add them onto this thread later.
Seiko7A38 wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 8:36 amNaturally I also trawled Soshul Meedya. A search on the Instagram hashtag #credorpacifique returns two dozen results, but no 7T72's.
Sometimes previously unsuccessful search links are worth trying again later. This 7T72-6A00 GCLE998 in nice well-cared for cosmetic condition was posted on Instagram 4 days ago by eclectic collector aerotordynamics.

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He'd previously posted a few more photos of it on Instagram here on 23rd August, which I hadn't spotted before, either.

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His example certainly appears to be in very nice condition. However, judging by what he wrote lower down his caption, I suspect he's not fully aware of its rather more humble (7T32) heritage.

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Re: Credor 7T72 - the ultimate incarnation of the Seiko 7T32 ?

Post by Seiko7A38 »

Although I'm admittedly strangely attracted to them, I've absolutely no intention of ever buying a Credor 7T72 at the prices they appear to command, so I've kept a watchful eye on Yahoo Japan. There was another 7T72-6A00 GCLE998 in decent used condition, listed on Monday this week as a 6-day auction, with a low start opening bid price of only 1 Yen. I added it to my Buyee watching page and their ending soon notification duly arrived in my email inbox this afternoon.

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The notification shows the bidding had, by then reached 30,500 Yen, with 15 minutes before the scheduled ending time. That was only the half of it. Like eBay, most serious bidding activity takes place in the final few minutes, especially if YJ's automatic extension comes into play. Although the seller had the facility enabled, the auction actually ended on schedule. I'll admit to watching the final couple of minutes counting down, as evidenced by my screen print below.

https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/au ... 1014895163

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And that's how it ended, after 29 bids, selling for ¥64,000 Yen + 10% Japanese Sales Tax, making a total of ¥70,400 Yen, equivalent to approx. $617.60 USD / £451 GBP. Running a closed search on Yahoo Japan on 7T72-6A00 revealed that I'd missed another 4-day auction earlier this month. That example, which was in rather more well worn condition, sold for ¥40,500 Yen + 10% Japanese Sales tax, making a total of ¥44,550 Yen, equivalent to approx. $390.80 USD / £285.45 GBP.

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Even at that much lower selling price, I still wouldn't ever consider paying that kind of money, for what is in effect, nothing more than a blinged-up re-branded Seiko 7T32. I'll just continue to admire them from a safe distance. ;)

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