SAAF issued 7A38-7070 rocks up on Gumtree Australia !

[Seiko7A38]

Readers may recall this thread from the old archived forum: SAAF Chrono's 7A28-7040 & 7A38-7070 where, with the assistance of a couple of ex-SAAF pilots, I managed to compile very short table of SAAF issue numbers for 7A38-7070's, versus their Seiko case-back serial numbers.

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I can't say I've actively searched for them in a long time, but until yesterday I hadn't seen anything which might have prompted me to. Then out of the blue, an Australian poster Flyingdoormat started an intriguing thread over on SCWF.

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I replied in some detail (across the course of a few posts), giving him a couple of options of how to go about the task. But from a personal standpoint, I was far more interested in learning more about the SAAF issued aspect of his watch and more to the point, where he'd managed to acquire it from. After a bout of diligent digging, I managed to find a couple of cached Google results from a Gumtree Australia classified advert, which had only recently been deleted.

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FS Seiko 7A38-7070 SAAF issued watch. Seiko 7A38-7070 South African Air Force issued watch. Full service by Adrian Sellick @VTA. Spare crystal and original bezel insert included. $1,100 Negotiable.

Rather frustratingly the advert had promptly disappeared into the ether, but interrogating the remaining HTML coding that I did manage to find, I believe this may have been the original Gumtree link (for what little that's worth now).

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-watches/ac ... 05l3008838

(/act/ in the URL stands for Australian Capital Territories, i.e. the Canberra area.)
I also managed to isolate this small 400x300 photo of what was the primary image:

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The bezel insert generally looks too good, compared to the rest of the watch (say for example the slop visible in the bracelet hinge links), so I'd suspect it's probably a Yobokies' repro' (as initiated here by members of the old forum).

This morning, the Australian SCWF poster Flyingdoormat replied in some detail, confirming what I'd managed to glean so far (presumably while he'd been asleep), also kindly disclosing the SAAF issue number AF14715 and Seiko case-back serial number 8N4133 and by providing a little background history.

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So there's another we can add to the table:

Rikus Basson's:... AF14650 s/n 8N4046
Johnno Adler's:...AF14553 s/n 8N4182
WasabiButler's:...AF14656 s/n 8N4077
Flyingdoormat's:..AF14715 s/n 8N4133

It's reassuring that this latest example also has an 8N4xxx prefix serial number. Perhaps a pattern is emerging.

[Seiko7A38]

Military watches in general don't hold a lot of interest for me personally, so although I'm a member of the MWR forum, despite having been registered since December 2009, I've only just over a 100 posts on there. Whenever I remember, maybe once a week or so, I'll sign in an run a search on '7A38' to see if anything of interest has been posted since my last visit. It was Flyingdoormat's inclusion of this sentence in his SCWF post that prompted my visit this morning:

I am a member at MWR with same user name which is were I did some searches to try and verify the watch as correct.

To my slight embarrassment there was a PM from him which he'd sent me 5 days ago, that I hadn't seen before or read:

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We've since exchanged quite a few more PM's, in one of which Chris disclosed what he'd paid for it. We agreed that the price you pay for a rare issued watch that you want badly, is 'subjective'. One other point to note in that screenshot of his PM, is that Chris is in Perth, WA, whereas the watch was in Canberra on the opposite side of Australia, 3735 km's (or 2321 miles away). So he hasn't actually received it yet. Chris has already said he'll post some photos when he does. Whether it's on SCWF or in this thread on MWR, which could use some Seiko 7Axx input, remains to be seen. Naturally, with Chris's kind permission, I'll re-post them here.

[Seiko7A38]

Chris did indeed kindly post two photos of his SAAF issued 7A38-7070 in that SCWF thread this morning, as promised.

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I can understand why he wants to replace the watch's original bezel insert. That almost pristine Yobokies repro' insert looks somewhat at odds, compared with the otherwise generally 'well used' condition, typical of a military issued watch.

Something else he may want to consider, to return the watch to its original condition is replacing the white date wheel. I must admit I'd previously failed to spot it in the small Gumtree image, but looking at it again, it was clearly visible. I assume someone (possibly Adrian @ VTA ?) fitted a replacement movement, but didn't bother to swap the date ring.

One thing I had noticed in the small Gumtree image (and commented in one of my posts on SCWF) was that the 4 o'clock pusher didn't look right (from the way it was protruding excessively):

Also the 4 o'clock pusher looks like it's making a bid to escape in that photo !

Looking at Chris's two larger photos, I now rather suspect that someone has fitted an incorrect replacement pusher, one with a longer stroke - possibly from a 7A28-7040 /-7049.

[Seiko7A38]

I'd PM'd Chris the bad news at the weekend. To my surprise, he replied that he hadn't noticed the incorrect colour date wheel himself - even when he'd wound the date on before taking the photo. I gave him the Seiko part numbers for the black date wheel (0801594) and correct pusher (80600809) and a link to Boley.de's parts list for the 7A38-7070 (in case he needed anything else). I also gave him contact details for Seiko Australia and the main distributor AWCS, so he could try to order them (assuming there was stock available). I'm guessing he hasn't met with any success, because earlier this morning, he posted this WTB advert on SCWF Trading Post.

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[Seiko7A38]

Whether it's on SCWF or in this thread on MWR, which could use some Seiko 7Axx input, remains to be seen.

Chris posted about his SAAF 7A38-7070 on MWR yesterday morning, but rather than add to the existing SAAF watches thread, started a new one of his own. He's embedded the same two photos (as on SCWF and above) under this text.

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Interestingly, his post received a reply from member Sigma7, a watch collector based in South Africa, who wrote:

I have the saaf 7a28, 7a38, and 7t42 , not much other info other than these replaced the lemanias at the time around the mid 80's to early 90's. They are nice watches, i discounted them being quartz, but after acquiring them they are very enjoyable watches to wear.

Naturally, on seeing this, I PM'd him. His initial reply was a bit vague and not particularly encouraging:

Off the top of my head my 7a38 is an early AF15 serial number and the watch dates to 1987.

Which doesn't fit the erstwhile 'emerging pattern'.

It's reassuring that this latest example also has an 8N4xxx prefix serial number. Perhaps a pattern is emerging.

[Seiko7A38]

The MWR poster Sigma7 (Bruce) has kindly just replied to my follow-up PM, giving the full numbers:

My watch's issue number is AF15042 and the serial number is 741895. My particular watch was issued in late 1989.

Interestingly, comparing Bruce's issue number AF15042 to John Adler's (the lowest seen to date: AF14553) - being a difference of 489 units and taking into account that the SAAF only purchased 500 7A38-7070's, assuming their issue numbers were sequential (and uninterrupted) potentially makes his one of the last dozen issued. However, it throws a proverbial spanner into the works, as far as my earlier conjecture, on the basis of its April 1987 74xxxx serial number. Unless they were issued (or allocated AF numbers) on a first in; last out basis. Hmm.

[Seiko7A38]

Thinking way back, I remember I'd first spotted Johnno Adler's SAAF issued 7A38-7070 posted for sale on a South African aviation website: avcom.co.za, back in December 2013. Here's my post from the old archived forum thread.

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John subsequently decided to keep it, per his posts in this thread on WatchUseek, nearly three years later in June 2016.

I tried to find his original FS post on avcom.co.za, but the link no longer works. The requested topic does not exist. Presumably their administrator must have purged older threads at some point. Bearing in mind how infrequently these watches turn up anywhere (less than half a dozen seen over the last 8 years - an indication of their poor survival rate), out of curiosity, I thought it might be worth running another couple of quick searches on that forum. I only found two meaningful results. The most recent was a FS advert for a Seiko flight master at the end of July this year, which in all likelihood is what is says; probably a non-issued 7T34 (no details were given).

The other, from almost exactly a year earlier, was a rather more intriguing thread started in late July 2020, by someone possibly named Trent*, who was seeking advice where to have his old SAAF Seiko watch serviced.

https://avcom.co.za/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=232053

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Although he replied to the thread a couple of times, Trent never actually stated whether his watch was a 7A28 or 7A38. Another poster replied: 'Seiko 7A28 7040 SAAF. Following a RAF tradition.' But I've no idea how they managed to arrive at that conclusion (versus the 7A38-7070). Intrigued, I emailed Neil 'wasabi' (who's a member of avcom.co.za) asking if he'd PM Trent. Neil kindly obliged. The reply subsequently came back: 'Mine has two numbers. AF12820 and a 305388', later also confirming it was indeed a 7A28-7040.

*Looking at the aircraft types in his signature, he appears to be a commercial airline pilot. Trent more likely refers to the Rolls-Royce Trent 7xx turbofan engines which power many of them. His inclusion of 'Alo3' (Alouette III) and Oryx later in the list, points to him being an ex-SAAF helicopter pilot.

[Seiko7A38]

Spurred on by the recent couple of appearances of SAAF issued 7A38-7070's, I've been doing a bit more research. I ran across this thread on Omega Forums: A place for SAAF's (South African Air Force pilot's watch thread). It's not new, having been started in May 2019 - I just hadn't read it properly before. On the first page there are a couple of photos of a beaten-up 7A28-7040, fitted with a rubber dive strap, but then typically the thread turns to the subject of the various Lemania's, which hold greater interest for military watch collectors. A couple of obviously well-researched posts on the second page of the thread, by another poster matthewt caught my eye. They led me to another later thread, which he started in April 2020. It's about another SAAF issued Lemania. Further down the page somebody else asked him this:

Any plans to write about the SAAF-issued Seiko chronographs (7A28 and 7A38) from the mid- to late-1980s?

To which Matthew replied:

My next article is on the Lemania Mono-pushers. I would like to complete these first and then will move onto the Seikos. Below are some pics of the Seikos (One unfortunately not in pic) and a few other SAAF watches.

Of course, knowing my luck, the 'one not in the pic' was the 7A38-7070.

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Matthew has already written a couple of exceedingly detailed blog articles on the subject of two SAAF issued Lemanias, here on: origintime.co.za. The website is owned by his son James and is obviously primarily intended to promote sales of high end collectable vintage watches. That said, if it follows the same format and includes a similar level of detail, Matthew's forthcoming blog article on the SAAF Seikos should be something to look forward to.

At the foot of his blog articles, Matthew had posted a link to his Instagram account: vintage_rolex_heuer_timepieces. So naturally I took a scroll through his feed. A fair way down I found two posts: one a video of his SAAF 7A28 and 7A38:



The second post, also dating from late 2019, is a side-by-side photo of his SAAF issued 7A38-7070 and Lemania 5012:



Notice anything unusual in that photo ?

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As I'd posted earlier higher up the page, with regard to Chris's (Flyingdoormat) recently acquired SAAF issued 7A38-7070, both the 2 o'clock and 4 o'clock pusher buttons of this example appear to protrude well above normal height.

Looking at Chris's two larger photos, I now rather suspect that someone has fitted an incorrect replacement pusher, one with a longer stroke - possibly from a 7A28-7040 /-7049.

Seeing a second example, fitted with what appear to be two wrong pushers, is too much of a coincidence in my book. I'm beginning to wonder if 'that someone', i.e. the culprit may have been the watchmaker from Waterkloof who used to service these watches. He's known to have 'customized' pilots' watches on request (usually by painting their hands with different coloured lume). There's a lengthy reference to this practice halfway down Matthew's Lemania 5012 article. Perhaps this might be another of his mods; that or a workaround for lack of the correct replacement spare parts.

[Seiko7A38]

Interestingly, his post received a reply from member Sigma7, a watch collector based in South Africa, who wrote:

I have the saaf 7a28, 7a38, and 7t42 ....

I'd searched Sigma7's posts on MWR and managed to find wrist shots of both his SAAF-issued 7A28-7040 and 7T42-6A00, but none of his 7A38-7070. During our subsequent exchange of PM's, Bruce wrote that he'd send me a couple of photos of his 7A38 at the weekend. True to his word, these arrived in my email inbox overnight.

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Note that compared to previous examples seen, the issue number AF15042 has been engraved 'upside down', in relation to the 'double wave' logo, SEIKO s/n 741895 and the rest of the case-back stampings. It's also well left of centre. If you read Matthew Taylor's blog article on the SAAF-issued Lemania 5012, he's written in great detail about the case-back engraving process, which was carried out prior to sending watches to SAAF stores. This is just a small extract from it:

Caseback stamping was done via a pantograph system and seems to have been done on 2 different machines or using 2 different engraving heads. The pantograph had a plate where the numbers where placed, then via a “geared arm” the movement of the large motion on the operator’s side would translate to a smaller motion on the now mounted caseback on the other. Although there looks to be 2 very different fonts or plates used, even same stencils could translate differently depending on the pressure applied by the operator or the age of the cutting head used.

Presumably the skill of the operator also played a part and Bruce's 7A38's case-back was engraved by an apprentice !

Like both his 7A28 and 7T42 (seen in the linked photos above), Bruce's 7A38 is fitted with a black NATO strap, in place of the original bracelet. He also sent me this shot of his SAAF-issued trio:

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[Seiko7A38]

A further belated footnote on the subject of MWR member Flyingdoormat (Chris's) SAAF issued 7A38-7070 ....

Something else he may want to consider, to return the watch to its original condition is replacing the white date wheel. I must admit I'd previously failed to spot it in the small Gumtree image, but looking at it again, it was clearly visible.
I assume someone (possibly Adrian @ VTA ?) fitted a replacement movement, but didn't bother to swap the date ring.

Partial quote below is from Chris's reply on SCWF, posted on 19th August:

When I spotted the seller had dropped to $1000 but I managed to negotiate to a better price and considering it had been serviced in April, fitted with new seals and pressure tested at a cost of $375 I think I got a pretty good deal.

.... which may go some way to explaining the seemingly expensive service charge of $375 Au. by Adrian Sellick @ VTA.

I make no excuses for failing to spot it before, but I just noticed this Instagram post from April 7th, by vintagetimeau.

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It's clearly the same watch - from the Yobokies' repro bezel insert, incorrect white date wheel, the matching small ding, right of centre on the 6 o'clock side of the watch case and that non-standard 4 o'clock pusher button is just discernible through Adrian's dense arm hair. Adrian is naturally promoting his watch repair capability and makes no mention of it being an SAAF-issued watch in the text. However, note the #saaf hashtag I've arrowed; followed (off screenshot) by #zuidafrika #southafrica #militarywatch #militarywatches #airforce.

[Seiko7A38]

Spurred on by the recent couple of appearances of SAAF issued 7A38-7070's, I've been doing a bit more research. I ran across this thread on Omega Forums: A place for SAAF's (South African Air Force pilot's watch thread). It's not new ...

Apologies if I appear to have dropped the ball on this one. I hadn't, I've just been preoccupied. In fact in the latter part of 2021, I'd PM'd the OP of that thread eugeneandresson, asking for details of his SAAF 7Axx's. His reply included this:

My 'Speedmaster' Seiko SAAF is AF1565X (3Nxxxx). The non working 'hideous' one is AF1521X (19xxxx).

Assuming his 'Speedmaster' is a 7A38-7070, apart from having a 3Nxxxx serial number, instead of the anticipated 8Nxxxx prefix, its AF issue number is much higher, well outside the 'normal' range (approx. 14550 through 15050). I need to go back to him and get confirmation (and the full numbers and ideally case-back photos).

Eugene also suggested that I contact the other poster matthewt, whom I'd already mentioned in my penultimate post (and indeed had attempted to do so). I have to say that I'm particularly disappointed by his lack of responses to my PM's and subsequent emails. He did actually reply to one of my Omega Forum PM's, which ironically included:

I'm so seldom on this forum, so completely dropped the ball.

However I did achieve success with another member of the Omega Forum kaapstadflaneur, who had posted a couple of wrist shots of his 'SAAF 7A38' in WRUW threads:

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I dropped Michael a PM in late November and received this detailed reply, with full disclosure, about 3 weeks later:

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[Seiko7A38]

Genuine SAAF issued 7A38-7070's are quite rare, hence don't come up for sale very often. One was listed on eBay earlier this morning, by a South African eBay seller, as a 7-day auction with a possibly over-optimistic opening bid price of $1250. There is also the option to make an offer. I must admit I was initially tempted, but have decided against it.

When I first looked at the listing, something didn't seem quite right about the watch. I'm not taking about the yellow painted chronograph hands (a mod performed on request by the 'Old watchmaker from Waterkloof'). Besides not looking quite right, the bezel appeared to be in far too good condition, compared to the rest of the watch (especially the typically knackered bracelet). At first I thought it might have been fitted with a Yobokies repro' bezel insert, but found the answer in the Seller's Notes: 'Watch is fitted with a NEW OLD STOCK original bezel with a new crystal fitted as well'. Except it's not the correct original bezel for a 7A38-7070. Looking at the side profile view, with the two separated rings of knurling, it looks very much more like a Seiko p/n 86310283 (used on the 7A28-7040 / -7049) instead of the correct p/n 86310523. It must have been difficult to fit - I know because I tried it myself many years ago. Their internal flange dimensions / height of the O-ring groove are slightly different. Note also the mark on the top L.H. corner of the watch case, presumably from when the old bezel was levered off, without taking care / protecting the case.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SEIKO-7A38-7 ... 5587208129

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The seller has posted most of the description in the Item Specifics / Seller's Notes:

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The MWR poster Sigma7 (Bruce) has kindly just replied to my follow-up PM, giving the full numbers:

My watch's issue number is AF15042 and the serial number is 741895. My particular watch was issued in late 1989.

Non-original bezel apart, what's interesting about this watch is it's also a 7418xx serial number (rather than an 8Nxxxx) and more significantly AF15056 is now the highest SAAF issue number for a 7A38-7070, that I've witnessed to date.

[Seiko7A38]

That incorrect replacement bezel had been bugging me, so this morning I sent a message to the eBay seller asking who'd fitted it. She replied: her husband, adding: 'He does services to watches. Original bezel is available.' I explained to her why I thought the bezel was wrong and asked if she could supply photos of the old bezel. She followed up with this:

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The removed bezel was also a Seiko p/n 8631.0283 !! Presumably fitted by the 'Old gentleman from Waterkloof'. I'll admit I'm not entirely surprised. From the faded yellow-painted chronograph hands, the watch had obviously visited his workshop in the past. He must have been short of 7A38 spares (or not too fussy what he used) because I've seen him fit 7A28-7040 pushers to SAAF issued 7A38-7070's before. Her husband (Sakkie van Staden) simply followed unwittingly, in good faith, replacing 'like for like'.

[Seiko7A38]

Remiss of me, I appear to have overlooked adding an update to this thread (excuse - I was in hospital at the time).
After being re-listed 3 times, that SAAF issued (and lightly modded) 7A38-7070 sold on 18th August for an undisclosed best offer, versus the slightly reduced opening bid price of $1150.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/165622480365

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