Heads Up on yet another 7A38 Franken(s) - Part 3 !!

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Re: Heads Up on yet another 7A38 Franken(s) - Part 3 !!

Post by Seiko7A38 »

I started to compose this post in the Yema Spationaute III as an investment thread in the Non-Seiko 7Axx Discussion Area (Re-branded mvmt's) section, earlier this morning. This is about as far as I'd got:
Seiko7A38 wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:44 amI suppose I should also mention the other Yema Spationaute III, listed by the same French eBay seller pierrotlunaire54, around the same time yesterday evening - because compared to his NOS example, it's something of a frankened horror ! According to him it's in “très bon état” ! :lol:
... Before I thought better of it and moved it here where it rightfully belongs. Not just because, by coincidence my last salutary warning post at the bottom of the previous page also concerned a franken 38mm reduced Yema Spationaute III, but this one (stupid pricing apart) is more likely to catch out an unwary punter. It was listed yesterday evening, by the aforementioned French eBay seller, as a 7-day auction with a ludicrously over-optimistic opening bid price of 600 Euros, which hopefully should prove enough of a deterrent to all but the most foolhardy.

For those unfamiliar with Yema Spationaute III variants, this is a particularly deceptive franken / bitza. The case-back and white dial (which appears to be in poor condition) are from the two-tone 38mm reduced version, model # N80A696. The blue inlaid bezel, case with stainless pushers, crown and polished stainless hour, minute and sweep hands are from the blue dialed 38mm reduced model # N80A66. The ensemble is topped off by a cheap and nasty olive NATO strap. :roll:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/montre-YEMA- ... 4472115170

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Here's a very quick side-by-side comparison shot of the two 38mm reduced variants that this franken is comprised of:

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Left: N80A66, right: N80A696. Rather appropriately, I just happened to have my two worst condition examples handy.
Admittedly not the best of photos, but note the polished stainless vs black outlined hour, minute and sweep hands.

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Re: Heads Up on yet another 7A38 Franken(s) - Part 3 !!

Post by Seiko7A38 »

Incidentally, I firmly believe that the current French eBay seller was not the culprit responsible for cobbling together this horrible frankened Yema Spationaute III. It has existed in its current form for at least 10 years. Better late than never, I got that uncanny feeling of Déjà Vu and went trawling back (a long way) through my archived photo folders.

It first appeared on the French classified site LeBonCoin in August 2011 (then fitted with a white NATO):

YemaSpationauteIII-Reduced38mmØ-WhiteFace(Franken)-LeBonCoin.fr-August2011-1.jpg
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It subsequently re-appeared on eBay in November 2011, fitted with the olive NATO strap:

YemaSpationauteIII-Reduced38mmØ-WhiteFace(Franken)-eBay-Nov2011-1.jpg
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Naturally, the serial number 2 - 319 matches that of the current seller's. What an amazing filing system, eh ? 8-)

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Re: Heads Up on yet another 7A38 Franken(s) - Part 3 !!

Post by Seiko7A38 »

Seiko7A38 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:53 pmThis franken, purporting to be a Yema Spationaute III Aragatz, was listed this morning by a French eBay seller, with a typical ludicrous Buy-it-Now price of 480 Euros, which should hopefully be enough to deter the most foolhardy novice. It's the watch case of a 38mm reduced two-tone version (model # N80A696) that's been fitted with a dial / movement from the dressy gold-plated model N8YM53 and a cheap NATO strap. The gold-plated sub-dial hands, which as you may have noticed, slightly overlap their sub-dial rims, are from something else again.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Montre-Yema- ... 5142693091

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Checking my eBay watching page, that horrible Yema N80A696 / N8YM53 Franken appears to have sold two days ago. :roll:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/165142693091

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I'm not sure whether it sold for the ludicrous Buy-it-Now price of 480 Euros, as indicated by the ended item summary, or a lower offer. The eBay Purchase History is typically misleading, but points to the latter. Either way it was too much !

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Re: Heads Up on yet another 7A38 Franken(s) - Part 3 !!

Post by Seiko7A38 »

This deceptively innocuous looking 7A38 Franken, described as a 7A38-7270, was listed yesterday evening by an Italian eBay seller as a 7-day auction. Were it not for the over-optimistic opening bid price of 199 Euros and grubby condition, which hopefully may prove to be a deterrent, it would otherwise be almost certain to catch out some unwary punter. :!: I must admit it had me scratching my head for a couple of minutes. On first sighting, I thought I was simply looking at a two-tone 7A38-7190 fitted with a non-original replacement bracelet, but checking the case-back stampings revealed another major red flag.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SEIKO-Cronog ... 4550793870

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To follow my rationale in flagging this watch as a Franken, you need to understand (in terms of accepted knowledge) that there is no such thing as a two-tone 7A38-7270 with a grey dial. At least none are documented on Seiko's database, nor have ever been seen before. Yes, that 710LXN18 dial was used in the two-tone 7A38-7190, 7A38-7280 and 7A38-728B variants. Indeed, there exists a two-tone 7A38-7270, commonly found on eBay Italy, but that has an off-white 723O dial.

What I believe this watch comprises is the watch case, dial and movement from a two-tone 7A38-7190, fitted with the case-back off a two-tone 7A38-7270 and what looks very much like the p/n B1615S bracelet off a stainless 7A38-7270. Of course, I may be completely wrong and this might be another extremely rare undocumented Italian market 'special' (like the 7A38-706x variants), but somehow I doubt it. So on that basis, my best advice is to ....

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Re: Heads Up on yet another 7A38 Franken(s) - Part 3 !!

Post by Seiko7A38 »

This subtle franken based on a two-tone 7A38-7060 first appeared earlier this morning just after 8:35 am, listed by an Italian eBay seller as a 7-day auction with an opening bid price of 21 Euros. The seller seemed to have had second thoughts and ended the listing approx. 40 minutes later, because of an error.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125115986205

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He'd obviously decided on a change of tactic. It was back on eBay again just after 9:15 am, re-listed as a Buy-it-Now for 189 Euros. His deceptively worded description, claiming the watch is 'COMPLETELY ORIGINAL' remains exactly the same. It's fitted with the 718L dial, most of the hands and presumably the movement from a 7A38-7260 or -726A.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/%F0%9F%87%AF ... 5116029311

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Note also the different (all-black) hand fitted to the 30 minute counting sub-dial, slightly off its mark, which shows loss of paint from around its boss, which may have come from the original 7A38-7060 dial / movement. It's a good indicator that the movement has been messed about with by a careless and incompetent botcher.

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In case anybody needed a reminder of how the correct 708L dial in a 7A38-7060 SAA016J looks, here's an old wrist shot:

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Re: Heads Up on yet another 7A38 Franken(s) - Part 3 !!

Post by Seiko7A38 »

I'd habitually added the listing to my eBay watching page. Unfortunately this meant that the Italian eBay seller was able to send me an unsolicited offer to purchase it for a 'reduced' figure of 175 Euros. Naturally, instead of declining his offer outright, I responded with a suitably appropriate counter-offer, moving the decimal point two places to the left (€1.75). Out of courtesy, I also sent him a link to this thread. His B/S reply beggars belief. :lol:

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He has since revised his deceptively worded description, removing the word 'COMPLETELY' (and merging 'ORIGINAL' into the sentence about the bracelet).

7A38-7060-Stainless+Gold-Franken-(718Ldial)-eBay-Jan2022-Description-Revised.png
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Re: Heads Up on yet another 7A38 Franken(s) - Part 3 !!

Post by Seiko7A38 »

As I've written so many times before, all it ever takes is one inexperienced mug punter to hit the Buy-it-Now button. :roll:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125116029311

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Edit: According to the eBay Purchase History, it appears it actually sold for a best offer accepted of 140 Euros.

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Re: Heads Up on yet another 7A38 Franken(s) - Part 3 !!

Post by Seiko7A38 »

Sometimes it takes more than one mug punter. :roll: Evidently the first came to his senses and reneged on the transaction. 24 hours later that two-tone 7A38-7060 based Franken was back on eBay again, listed a third time yesterday afternoon.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/%F0%9F%87%AF ... 5122804397

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It subsequently sold a second time yesterday evening, to a buyer with the same ID n***r, for an undisclosed best offer.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125122804397

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Re: Heads Up on yet another 7A38 Franken(s) - Part 3 !!

Post by Seiko7A38 »

Some 7A38 Frankens are rather more obvious than others, particularly when little thought is given to their composition. This horror, also based on a 7A38-7060 watch case, was listed by an Australian eBay seller at lunchtime today, as a 7-day auction with an opening bid price of $105 Au. The watch case and its silvery white Tachymeter ring appear to be from a stainless (rather than two-tone) 7A38-7060. It's been fitted with the taupe 703L dial from a stainless 7A38-7020 / -7029. However this probably wasn't a direct drop-in movement, because the three sub-dial hands are the wrong finish; they'd normally be silvery white all over. The tail of the sweep second hand also appears to be slightly bent. The bracelet end pieces could well be from the watch's original bracelet, stamped G1105, but it's been fitted with what I'm assuming is a later replacement Seiko bracelet with a flip-lock clasp.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/seiko-vintag ... 4398033971

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Had to smile at the last sentence of the seller's description - clearly written with his tongue planted firmly in cheek. :lol:

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Re: Heads Up on yet another 7A38 Franken(s) - Part 3 !!

Post by Seiko7A38 »

Sometimes my infallible sense of Déjà Vu is a little slow kicking in. But this one started stirring it yesterday evening. 8-)
I had of course posted about this very same franken on page 10 of the old forum's Heads Up on a 7A38 Franken thread, back in March 2020, when it was previously listed by another Australian eBay seller.

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The previous Australian eBay seller subsequently uploaded 3 more photos, which indeed show the bracelet end pieces are original Seiko, stamped with p/n G1105, but the bracelet is actually just some random generic replacement. 👎

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Ironic how I ended my second follow-up post on the subsequent page ! :lol:

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Re: Heads Up on yet another 7A38 Franken(s) - Part 3 !!

Post by Seiko7A38 »

The 7-day Australian eBay auction for that 7A38-7060 based franken, fitted with a taupe 703L dial from a 7A38-7020 / -7029, generic replacement bracelet with other 'unique features' ended on Saturday, selling for $355 Au. after 20 bids:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/234398033971

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I'd opine the seller should consider himself fortunate to have recovered that much of his original outlay. Although he did join the old forum, I don't think he ever actually posted, but I found a fair amount of email correspondence, dating from May 2020, where he'd disclosed that he'd paid $400 Au. for it (as a best offer) at the end of April (as indeed I'd suspected from my earlier posts on page 11 of the old forum's Heads Up on yet another 7A38 Franken thread).

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At the risk of repeating myself, let's hope that's the last we've seen of it. Somehow I doubt that. :roll:

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Re: Heads Up on yet another 7A38 Franken(s) - Part 3 !!

Post by Seiko7A38 »

Over the years, I've seen some fairly elaborate (I'm being polite) descriptions used to hype and misrepresent what is in reality, nothing more than just another 7A38 Franken (albeit nicely constructed). This one, which was listed overnight by US eBay seller redline76 (whom I've already cited in another thread) as a 7-day auction with an opening bid price of $49.99 deserves special mention. Warren prefers to call his customised bead-blasted mods and frankens 'Prototypes'. :roll: This franken, based on a 7A38-702H watch case, is lavishly titled: Royal Oak+Gray Ghost=Royal Ghost Prototype. :lol:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VTG-Seiko-Qu ... 3892527213

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Like I say I've seen some horseshit in my time but this pile just about takes the biscuit.

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At first glance, it might look like a common-or-garden light grey-dialed two-tone 7A38-7020 (SAA010J), which has had the gold plating stripped from the bezel (as so many examples unfortunately do), but it's rather more complicated than that. Notice the lack of SPORTS 100 script on the dial, that you'd normally expect to see on any 7A38-702x variant. The light grey 710L dial is from a two-tone 7A38-7190, or more likely a two-tone 7A38-7280, as is the silver Tachymeter ring. The bezel has been stripped and has to be said, nicely refinished. The watch case, pushers, crown and case-back have all been bead-blasted. Presumably more expedient than polishing them. True to the franken formula, the bracelet is not original. Not sure what it's off, but it appears to be stamped with p/n C234.

If you're tempted, please remember that it is just another bitza franken watch and bid accordingly. The auction is a private listing, with bidder identities hidden, so wide open to shill bidding. Judging by some of the prices his other creations have achieved in the past, I strongly suspect that redline76 is another exponent of this despicable practice.

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Re: Heads Up on yet another 7A38 Franken(s) - Part 3 !!

Post by neucommer »

Hi there,

Thanks for putting together such a great resource, it's been very helpful in the past in confirming certain details and all your hard work is very appreciated.

It's me, Warren (redline76) and I felt compelled to re-register just so I could have the opportunity to give my perspective on the watches I choose to work on, and why I do what I do.

I got into this hobby several years ago as I was trying to remember a Seiko that I received as a gift in the 80's. It turned out to be a 7A28 7049 and going down the rabbit hole revealed a whole world of interesting Seikos to me that ignited a passion to not just own, but to work on.

Over time I've learned how to do many things with watches and while I wouldn't consider myself an expert by any means I'm having fun and it's nice to move on projects when I'm done.

So, with that said, I take exception to how you've portrayed my intentions, as unlike many of the other people profiled on your site, I've never set out to deceive. Quite to the contrary, I clearly state all the work I do to my watches, and if it's a custom build I reserve the right to call it whatever I want so long as it's not being misrepresented, which I go out of my to not do. This is a hobby for me, and the fact that the watches sell for what they do should be an indication to you that there is some degree of desirability to these non-standard Seikos. In fact , most of my watches are dead nuts stock restorations with no modifications or aftermarket parts.

I'm not sure what your major issue is with my work. For reference, the 7A38 in question did not have an original band to begin with. Its movement was trashed, pushers frozen and the bezel extremely worn. By all accounts it was junk. What's the problem with restoration, or even modification if the end result is a pretty watch that can now be enjoyed by someone? I never claimed it to be original, I stated everything that was done (by the way, the case polished up beautifully but I went with a blasted finish because it just looked cooler to me).

Finally, I choose to hide bidders because it's really not anyone else's business if someone bids or wins an auction. To strong imply that I shill bid is disrespectful at best, especially with my perfect feedback and happy patrons. Accept that not everyone wants the exact same things as you and you may come to discover some neat things out there in this wonderful hobby of ours.

Thanks,

Warren.

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Re: Heads Up on yet another 7A38 Franken(s) - Part 3 !!

Post by Seiko7A38 »

Warren.

Welcome to the new forum and thank you for your response. IIRC you were a member of the old forum as 'Warren', so I don't understand why you chose the username you did, because you're hardly a 'newbie'.

As far as 'taking exception' goes, I've made no secret of my loathing for the stupid nicknames given to Seiko watches, particularly 'Royal Oak' which is a complete misnomer. The 'Grey Ghost' moniker normally applies exclusively to the 7A28-7079 (and -707A), of which your 7A38 franken creation contains zero constituent parts, but you somehow contrive to come up with 'Royal Ghost'. Not only that but you have the gall to call it a 'Prototype'. Allow me to refresh your memory of the word's true definition:

A prototype is an early sample, model, or release of a product built to test a concept or process.
A first or preliminary version of a device or vehicle from which other forms are developed.

Bitza (or Franken) is a more accurate description of what it really is:
N a thing that has a mixed heritage or is made of an other assortment of different things.
A denoting a modified version of something that is seen as unnatural or grotesque.

I have built a number of 7A38-702x based Frankens myself over the years and have never called them anything else but. For example, this one which I wore earlier this week. All were built for my own enjoyment, with no intention of selling. You claim 'this a hobby for me'. I'm sorry Warren, but someone who regularly buys and re-sells 7Axx's for profit and cobbles together misrepresented frankens like this, not for themselves, but for the sole purpose of selling is not a hobbyist but a dealer.

Choosing to list your watches using Private Auctions is your prerogative, whatever reason. However it has been common knowledge that such listings have been used to conceal shill bidding for decades. You are now very much in the minority so leave yourself open to accusation, particularly when certain bidding patterns are repeated.

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Re: Heads Up on yet another 7A38 Franken(s) - Part 3 !!

Post by Seiko7A38 »

FWIW, Warren's 7-day auction for his 7A38-702H based Franken (sorry 'Royal Ghost Prototype') ended last night selling for $415 after 46 bids. Not excessive, but certainly not worth that much, in my opinion.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VTG-Seiko-Qu ... 3892527213

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Re: Heads Up on yet another 7A38 Franken(s) - Part 3 !!

Post by Seiko7A38 »

Apart from its better than average standard of refinishing, which no doubt contributed to the exceptional selling price, Warren's 7A38 Franken was otherwise unremarkable. Over the years I've probably seem more Frankens based on the two-tone 7A38-702x than any other model. Indeed, the first one I inadvertently purchased myself as an ill-informed rookie - from the notorious SpeedTimerKollektion outfit was based on one.

There was another example listed on eBay by a German seller in the last week of February. I didn't post about it at the time, possibly for a couple of reasons: either I was preoccupied or more likely that it was candidly described, albeit in German (see below), so didn't warrant a 'heads up' as such. I didn't take a screen print of the listing as it first appeared, but after a quick search of my email inbox, I found the original search notification. It was listed late on the evening of 23rd February. The £ Sterling Buy-it-Now price shown equates to €179 Euros at the prevailing exchange rate.

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https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Seiko-Quartz ... 4436721398
Seiko Quartz Chronograph Speedy 7A38-7020 Vintage Royal Oak läuft 1A

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As can be seen in these 3 (of the seller's 8 photos), it's based on a well-worn two-tone 7A38-7020 which are commonly found on eBay Germany. Typically, the bezel has been stripped of its plating, but leaving the gold dummy rivets. It's been fitted with the 708L dial (and presumably movement), from a two-tone 7A38-7060 (again very common on eBay Germany). The hour and minute hands are missing their lume. The Seiko two-tone bracelet fitted is off a much later watch. Indeed, pretty much as the seller stated in the first part of his description:

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Over the last 2 months the seller revised the listing 3 times, reducing the Buy-it-Now price from 179 Euros to 119 Euros.

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It finally sold earlier this morning, not for the much reduced Buy-it-Now price but for an undisclosed best offer.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/234436721398

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Possibly not a fair comparison with Warren's better refinished example, but a reflection of the sort of price one might expect to pay for such a franken when it's honestly described.

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Re: Heads Up on yet another 7A38 Franken(s) - Part 3 !!

Post by Seiko7A38 »

Seiko7A38 wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 3:12 pmOver the years, I've seen some fairly elaborate (I'm being polite) descriptions used to hype and misrepresent what is in reality, nothing more than just another 7A38 Franken (albeit nicely constructed). This one, which was listed overnight by US eBay seller redline76 (whom I've already cited in another thread) as a 7-day auction with an opening bid price of $49.99 deserves special mention. Warren prefers to call his customised bead-blasted mods and frankens 'Prototypes'. :roll: This franken, based on a 7A38-702H watch case, is lavishly titled: Royal Oak+Gray Ghost=Royal Ghost Prototype. :lol:
Following on from his previous, last night US eBay seller redline76 (a.k.a. Warren) listed another cobbled together 7A38 Franken 'Prototype Mod', which is obviously directly connected to his 'Royal Oak+Gray Ghost=Royal Ghost Prototype'. It's effectively the leftovers from a two-tone 7A38-7280, that's been stripped of its well-worn gold plating and fitted with the Tachymeter ring, 703L gold dial, hands and movement, which presumably came from his earlier 7A38-702H Franken.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Feb-1988-Vin ... 3943548585

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Despite his protestations to the contrary, Warren can be economical with the truth when it comes to describing his Franken creations. For example, he states: The 7280 started off as two tone with a white dial but that was boring. There is NO SUCH THING as a two-tone 7A38-7280 with a white dial. Gold tone (SAA124J) and all-Stainless (SAA119J), Yes. This watch actually started life as a two-tone 7A38-7280 with a grey dial (SAA120J) - and specifically this one:

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It was listed on 6th December last year by a US eBay seller. Unfortunately, the original listing (item # 203740863518) has long since dropped off eBay history, but I managed to find the saved search notification in my email inbox. The Sterling figure shown £75.4 equates to $100 (more likely $99.99 or Best Offer) at the prevailing exchange rate.

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Of course, we already know where that 'boring' grey 710L dial ended up, don't we ? In his 'Royal Ghost Prototype'. :roll:

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Re: Heads Up on yet another 7A38 Franken(s) - Part 3 !!

Post by Seiko7A38 »

Warren's 7-day eBay auction for his 7A38 Franken 'Prototype Mod', built from 'leftovers', ended late yesterday evening, selling for $201.50 after 31 bids - which is more than it deserved.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/203943548585

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Re: Heads Up on yet another 7A38 Franken(s) - Part 3 !!

Post by Seiko7A38 »

Seiko7A38 wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 3:12 pmOver the years, I've seen some fairly elaborate (I'm being polite) descriptions used to hype and misrepresent what is in reality, nothing more than just another 7A38 Franken (albeit nicely constructed) ....
US eBay seller redline76 (a.k.a. Warren) continues to churn out his bead-blasted Franken 7A38's, complete with all the usual flimflam, hype and half-truths we've come to expect. Last night he listed another 7A38-702x Franken. He calls it a
7A38 702H Royal Oak 'Prototype'. In fact it's actually based on the almost identical 7A38-702A as can be seen by from the case-back stamping. The Tachymeter ring and off-white 723O dial are from a two-tone 7A38-7270 (or possibly the less common gold-tone 7A38-727A). The 723O dial is NOT 'enamel' - just the usual gloss painted finish. The sub-dial and sweep hands likely came off the 7A38-702A, the hour and minute from somewhere else (not the two-tone 7A38-7270).

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/November-198 ... 3990019918

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In his description (and the amendments), Warren implies that this watch was constructed a while ago. Not so, this is just the latest Franken creation off his production line. He bought the well-worn 7A38-702A from a Moroccan eBay seller in the last week of April for an undisclosed best offer (of less than $150).

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/403618272750

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Needless to say, the case-back serial number 3N1540 matches:

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Re: Heads Up on yet another 7A38 Franken(s) - Part 3 !!

Post by Seiko7A38 »

The last paragraph of Warren's description reads:
I do my best to give as much detail as possible and I want you to be happy with your purchase so please study the pictures carefully and if you have any questions at all please don't hesitate to reach out. Again, this is not my business, I clean up and collect Seikos so I'm always happy to chat watch details with you.
Note that once again, he claims this is not a business. I call Bullsh!t. He's clearly buying up lesser condition, well-worn, 'junk' 7A38's with the deliberate intention of creating more Franken watches to sell for profit. Just to prove my point, in the early hours of this morning, he won this US eBay auction for a well-worn stainless 7A38-6090 'head only'.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/175310011733

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Checking the eBay Bidding History shows a winning bidder ID i***e, with a feedback of 746 - the same as redline76.

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