Another gap in my Orient J39 knowledge database filled

[Seiko7A38]

Over the last few years, I've been striving to compile an Excel spreadsheet database, documenting the details of every known Orient and Racer branded variant of J39xxx-xx, using the Orient J3920 (Seiko 7A38) movement. (It also includes the Puma Y19xxx-xx variants). So far, based on what I've learned, the Orient / Racer model numbering sequence runs from J39001-70 to J39031-70 and nearly 100 dial colour / case finish permutations exist within that. This thread on the old forum, which I last updated over a year ago refers: Orient / Racer J39 / Puma Y19 Database - status update(s)

I'm constantly adding minor updates to the spreadsheet, but something that has long frustrated me are the couple of significant gaps in the numbering sequences, where hitherto unseen J39xxx-xx models presumably must have existed, that I've made Zero headway on, despite searching the Internet ad nauseam.

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I'm pleased to announce that I've finally made a little progress towards remedying that gap in the first sequence.

[Seiko7A38]

To fully understand the context, you'll have to accept my word for it, that Orient Watch Co. weren't always consistent in their allocation of case-back model codes. Sometimes, both the Orient and Racer branded variants would share the same case-back number - notably the multiple dial colour variants of J39908-70. Yet other times, they'd use another different number. There are other anomalies besides, that I won't go into here. Another J39 variant where the Orient and Racer models share (or should I say shared) the same case-back number is the J39002-70. Although I've tended to ignore them (for the purposes of my spreadsheet database), there are also a few Orient and Racer J38 (7A48) variants which share the same watch cases as their J39 siblings, but in most instances don't share the last three J3Xxxx digits and there's some overlap in their numbering. There was one exception I'd made a mental note of, over 6½ years ago.

The full details can be found at the bottom of the first page of this J38 dedicated thread on the old forum. I spotted a NOS Orient J38, unusually fitted with a bracelet, listed on eBay Italy at the end of June 2014. Here's a copy of my post:

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I did think about buying it myself, for a while. Not for its own sake, but to break up for its case and bracelet, with the future intention of using it on another then unknown variation of J39002-70, which might possibly exist. But I relented and instead gave forum member Don a 'heads up' and he bought it, per the ensuing posts:

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In an earlier post Don had also uploaded this photo of the case-back - now unfortunately water-marked by PhotoBucket:

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Thankfully, it's still just possible to make out the case-back number: J38003-70 (per the last sentence in my post).

Here's a reminder of how the known Orient and Racer branded variants of J39002-70, using the same watch case, look.

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.... and their respective case-backs:

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My Racer branded example may have some additional engraving (it was a promotional item for COPE Spanish radio), but I've no reason to doubt that the J39002-70 stamped case-back is anything but original to the watch.

[Seiko7A38]

There was one exception I'd made a mental note of, over 6½ years ago.

In fact, although it rightfully had no place on my Orient J39 spreadsheet, I'd given myself a little 'aide memoire'.

.... it's still just possible to make out the case-back number: J38003-70.

Against the T.B.D. J39003-xx blank row, in the comments field on the far right hand side I'd written:

There exists an Orient J38003-70 (7A48). You'll see the significance presently, after I've had my lunch.

[Seiko7A38]

At the beginning of April, before the long Easter weekend break, I'd successfully made contact with a Spanish seller on the classified site Wallapop.es. They turned out to be an employee of a B&M jewellery outlet in Vic (near Barcelona) who were once Seiko and Orient retailers. This artist's impression of their old storefront comes from their website:

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A search using a combination of Maps123.net and Google Street View reveals a truer picture:

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From being a specialist watch retailer and Seiko authorised dealer back in 1988, to becoming the rather nondescript looking jewellery outlet it is today.

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But I digress.

Initially, I purchased a NOS J38907-80 and J39907-50 from them, which they'd advertised on Wallapop. Details of those can be found in another recent thread in this forum section. They then informed me that they'd found another 3 NOS Racer J39's in their warehouse and would let me know the details on the Tuesday, after the long Easter weekend !

I've already written up details of the two black dialed Racer J39's in a subsequent post in the aforementioned thread. I've deliberately kept schtum about the third one, which had a white dial, to form the subject basis of this separate thread. Please accept my apologies, if it's become a bit long winded in the process, but I'm getting to the point.

When the seller gave me the J39 model numbers, they didn't actually read them (in full) off the watches' case-backs, but from their paper hang tags, for example J39907B, J39024B and J39027B (where the B suffix signifies a black dial). The one that intrigued me was J39004W - being one of the gaps in my spreadsheet database (and having a white dial). Being hitherto unknown, I was secretly hoping it would be another previously unseen case model. Transpires it wasn't.

As became immediately obvious as soon as I saw the photos emailed me by the Spanish seller. It appears to be exactly the same watch case as the Orient and Racer J39002-70, with the same arabic number J392-0027-A01 dial, fitted with the same two-tone bracelet as Don's J38003-70 ! So the variant I'd thought about creating, using that, did exist.

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The seller didn't initially include a photo of the case-back, so naturally I asked for one, which she immediately supplied:

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The case-back is most definitely stamped J39004-70 (rather than J39002-70), which seems slightly incongruous when the primary difference is one comes on a leather strap and the other has a bracelet fitted. Evidently yet another vagary in Orient Watch Co.'s model number allocation.

I couldn't quite discern the bracelet part number from that photo, but I had a pretty good idea what it was. So I emailed Don and asked him to check his J38003-70. Transpired he'd sold it to a friend a while back. So I asked him to forward my question. Overnight, he came back with the right answer: AK0106 - which, having rotated the seller's photo, zoomed in and squinted hard, is what I thought it possibly might be.

So, without waiting for it to arrive, hopefully next week, I've already updated the prior T.B.D. row on my spreadsheet.

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[Seiko7A38]

This morning the postman delivered my latest package from Spain, containing 3 more NOS Racer J39's. Generally, I'm pleased with them - even the J39004-70, despite its idiosyncrasies. Shades of Marty Feldman. I'd already noticed that the sub-dial rims were far from concentric in the seller's photos, but had decided to purchase it anyway, regardless.

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I'll admit I hadn't studied them close enough, because I'd thought the effect might have been caused by the upper and lower and dial plates separating, allowing one to float - as occasionally happens with certain Seiko 7A38 dials - notably those of the 7A38-6080 and 7A38-6090. When I dropped the dial / movement out for a closer look, that clearly wasn't the case. It's a manufacturing fault (on the top plate) where the gold appliqué wasn't properly aligned. On the right hand side of the dial, the 1/10s sub-dial ring overlaps the minute marks ! How did this watch ever get through QC ?

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The other thing I wanted to check was the dial part number (most of which is hidden under the Tachymeter ring). As I'd correctly anticipated it's J392-0027 (SI)-A01 (as opposed to J392-0047-xxx). It was when I zoomed in for this close-up shot of the dial part number that the doubts began to set in.

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Note the slightly damaged slot in the dial fixing screw and the scratches around the recess. This could point to the dial having been removed (and replaced) for whatever reason. Should this watch be correctly fitted with another J392-0047 dial, to match the case-back number ? Other Racer and Orient J39 models use two different dial designs in the same case: the J39908-70 and J39024-50 immediately spring to mind.

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The case-back is definitely stamped J39004-70 and the other markings [Y], CS, SS+GP and STAINLESS STEEL all match this case's style and materials (same as the J39002-70), but playing devil's advocate, who's to say the case-back hasn't been swapped ? I guess eventual sight of another example will be the only way to confirm whether it's a wrong 'un or not. It's pointless asking Orient Watch Co.

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At least the bracelet is stamped with the correct part number: AK0106 !

[Seiko7A38]

I guess eventual sight of another example will be the only way to confirm whether it's a wrong 'un or not.

In fact, I've been actively pursuing another example for over a month.

It's pointless asking Orient Watch Co.

What's more, it's an Orient branded version of the J39004-70 (on bracelet) - and No, I didn't waste my time asking them.

It was listed on the Italian classifieds site Subito on April 9th: https://www.subito.it/hobby-collezionis ... 459799.htm

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The Italian seller was offering two Orient quartz chronographs in the same listing, at 100 Euros apiece. The other was an unidentified all-stainless HFA (7T32) model. There were three photos of each, but only head-on views of the one I was interested in. To say that the seller, Maurizio, was unresponsive is a polite understatement. I messaged him daily for a week, asking if he'd agree to ship the watch to the UK, without so much as single word in reply. The following weekend, I sent an SMS to the phone number in the listing, asking him to reply to my messages. He eventually did:

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Although I was already fed up of chasing him by then, I didn't give up entirely. Having a good idea of what it was likely to be, I asked Maurizio to confirm the model number on the case-back. To my surprise, he responded with a photo of it:

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He then promptly stopped responding. In my desperation to acquire the watch and persuade him to ship it to the UK, I even went as far as to offer him 150 Euros and 50 Euros to cover shipping to UK and the inconvenience of posting it.

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That was on 20th April. Despite my enhanced offer, much to my annoyance and frustration, he never replied again.
But when it comes to intransigent international sellers, I don't give up easily. I already had a workaround up my sleeve.

[Seiko7A38]

When such situations arise, I honestly do hate having to ask favours of fellow watch collectors, to act as 'middle men' in an awkward purchase. My first thought had been to ask Instagrammer @queenseiko (Domenico), who'd recently helped me to acquire an Italian market gold-tone 7A38-706A, where the eBay seller had reneged on the transaction. I'd worked out that Domenico lived about 40 Km's from Maurizio, so worst case, if Maurizio wouldn't ship it (even within Italy), a solution might be found. After a brief deliberation, I decided that was too much of an imposition to ask of someone.

Then I remembered Michele from Segnatempo, whom I'd bought a couple of watches from, including funnily enough, an Orient J39722-70 (left of photo) back in March 2017. At that time, I was having similar problems with two other sellers on Subito, who both refused to ship outside Italy. I'd asked Michele if he'd buy the watches on my behalf and ship them to UK - he kindly obliged. By coincidence, the watch in the middle is the Orient J39002-70 mentioned in my first post.

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So, on 19th April, I dropped Michele an email, reminding him of our previous dealings, asking if he'd be so kind as to purchase the Orient J39004-70 from Maurizio on my behalf. You'll note I mentioned 'Michele' in my last message to Maurizio on 20th April. Reading my email again, I probably should have warned him how uncommunicative he was. That soon became evident to Michele.

In my efforts to ensure he pursued this extremely lackadaisical seller, I probably sent Michele too many chasers, asking if he'd made any progress. I was almost on the point of giving up (on Michele), when on 3rd May he forwarded me these 3 photos, which Maurizio had sent him earlier that day, writing: "I practically bought it already!"

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Note that the dial colour looks rather more silvery (than the dull flat grey in the Subito listing images), similar to Don's J38003-70 (7A48) mentioned in my first post. The Tachymeter numbering appears to be red, same as the white-dialed Orient and Racer J39002-70's and my recently acquired Racer J39004-70. I'd posit that black printing would've worked better on a grey background, but I guess it's another of those little Orient Watch Co. idiosyncrasies.

Another week went by. Cognisant that he had a business to run, I tried my best to be patient and not hassle Michele for another update. Then, yesterday evening, to my relief, he sent me a brief email with the attached photo (taken by him). It may not be the best shot of the watch, but I was pleased to see it, nevertheless. I knew the watch was NOS with tags, but didn't realize before that it was almost a full set, with Orient box and Italian market warranty card.

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[Seiko7A38]

As you may have gathered from my admittedly rather poor wrist shot in the WRUW thread, Michele's package containing the long-awaited Orient J39004-70 finally arrived from Italy yesterday afternoon - exactly 6 weeks from the day it was first listed on Subito. I don't think I've allowed myself to become so needlessly stressed out over an acquisition for my collection in a long time. I almost gave it up for 'lost' a couple of times. Eventually my persistence paid off.

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This is how it arrived with VEN showing in the day window. Despite coming with a warranty card printed in Italian, like every other Orient J39 that I've purchased from Italy, this one doesn't have an English / Italian day wheel fitted - they usually have either English / French, like this one, or English / German.

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Note that the dial colour looks rather more silvery (than the dull flat grey in the Subito listing images), similar to Don's J38003-70 (7A48) mentioned in my first post.

The dial colour is light grey with a slight hint of metallic, rather than silver per se.

The Tachymeter numbering appears to be red, same as the white-dialed Orient and Racer J39002-70's and my recently acquired Racer J39004-70.

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The watch is almost in NOS condition, with minor handling marks and shows evidence of having been worn sparingly.

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At least the bracelet is stamped with the correct part number: AK0106 !

Just in case it wasn't clear enough in the previous photo.

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Although their bracelets share the share the same part number, AK0106, the Orient's clasp cover is engraved ....

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.... whereas the Racer's is plain, un-branded. Note the lack of any provision for micro adjustment on either.

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[Seiko7A38]

Here's a quick side-by-side shot of my Racer and Orient variants of J39004-70 ....

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.... which if nothing else, highlights the appalling misalignment of the gold appliqué around the Racer's sub-dials.

[Seiko7A38]

I'm not sure if I should even admit to this. Remember how excited I was to find that NOS Orient J39004-70 listed on Subito a few months ago and how desperate I was to get my hands on it at the time ? Well I've just bought another.

It came up in my saved eBay search notifications a week or so ago, listed by an Italian seller as a 7-day auction with an opening bid price of 25 Euros. The listing was titled simply: Orient Vintage Chrono Quartz. There was no mention of any model number, but without even checking the photo of the case-back, I instinctively recognised it as a J39004-70.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Orient-Vinta ... 3618484578

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Initially, I just added it to my watching page out of curiosity, half-expecting someone else to bid on it. But nobody did. So with just 5 seconds of the auction remaining, I chucked in a low bid and won it for the opening bid price of 25 Euros.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/203618484578

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The seller hadn't set up any international postage and took a little persuasion to do so. But it's on its way. Checking the UPS tracking, it left Italy on Thursday and arrived at their Corbeil Essonnes, France hub this morning. The Italian seller's description translated as: 'Excellent general aesthetic condition, in need of overhaul, I am selling it as NOT WORKING', so it may turn out to be a complete piece of junk. But at the price I paid, who cares ?

[Seiko7A38]

UPS delivered that Orient J39004-70 this morning. Here's a re-post of my 'warts and all' almost as received wrist shot that I posted in the WRUW thread. The watch isn't actually running - I just set the time and day / date for the photo.

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Whereas it's not quite the totally irredeemable piece of junk I expected it to be (for 25 Euros), it's going to need more than just a bit of TLC.

I suspect it's also going to need rather more besides a quick clean-up and a new battery. I haven't opened it up yet to investigate, but that rusty film around the left hand side of the dial, creeping from underneath the Tachymeter ring doesn't bode well - likely caused by water ingress. I'm not unduly worried if the movement is rusted. I'd already made tentative alternative plans. The two-tone p/n AK0106 bracelet is almost full length (only one adjustment link had been removed) and fits my wrist comfortably. The J39004-70 case-back is thankfully devoid of any tool inflicted scratches. Worst case, it may get broken up for those.

[Seiko7A38]

Hmm. Perhaps I may have been too hasty in pre-judging its fate. Having gingerly unscrewed the case-back, expecting the worst, I was pleasantly surprised to find the Orient J3920 movement back-plate was clean if not exactly pristine, showing no signs of rust nor previous battery leakage. I tentatively fitted a new battery and although far from being fully functional, there are some flickering signs of life (as we know it, Jim). It's not quite dead yet.

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[Seiko7A38]

Ahem. Scratch that. Please disregard my previous rose-tinted delusional musings. This watch is well beyond any realistic hope of economic restoration and will most definitely be broken up for parts. In fact, I've already started. This morning I withdrew the dial / movement and the rust hidden under the Tachymeter ring is much worse than I'd anticipated.

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Apart from the ring of rust staining round the dial perimeter, which would have been impossible to clean up, under closer inspection, the water damage extends onto the visible part of the dial, at the 2 o'clock and 8 o'clock marks.

Curiously, rather than gaining ingress through worn or perished crown and pusher seals, as one might have expected, the water appears to have leaked past a poorly sealed glued-in crystal. That strip of detritus on the dial face, to the right of CHRONOGRAPH appears to be dried-up glue. My two photos below don't show it particularly well, but all three pushers are completely rust free and work perfectly. Then again, someone may have cleaned them up. Who knows ?

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I'm not unduly worried if the movement is rusted. I'd already made tentative alternative plans. The two-tone p/n AK0106 bracelet is almost full length (only one adjustment link had been removed) and fits my wrist comfortably. The J39004-70 case-back is thankfully devoid of any tool inflicted scratches. Worst case, it may get broken up for those.

Regardless - its fate is now sealed. In truth, it probably was at the moment I bought it.

[Seiko7A38]

This photo from a thread on the old forum, entitled: Another Orient J39 basket case restoration project - J39002-70 gives a subtle clue as to my earlier partly intentional / fall-back plan. The watch on the right is my completely original Orient J39002-70, which I'd posted a wrist shot of in the WRUW thread this morning. The similar appearing watch on the left was the original 'basket case' subject of that thread. It's a complete 'bitza', built from component parts of at least 3 different watches, including the case and Tachymeter ring from two different Orient J38's (not J39's). Since I took that photo back in April 2017, it's also benefited from a better dial / movement. It's about to be further modded once again.

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[Seiko7A38]

Following the logic demonstrated by Orient Watch Co.'s J39 model numbering algorithm, fitting a p/n AK0106 bracelet to a J39002-70 (and also changing the case-back) makes it a J39004-70. So this afternoon, I've done exactly that. Here's a slightly different photo to the one I've just posted in the WRUW thread.

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[Seiko7A38]

Orient J39's don't seem to have come up for sale very often over the last year or so. Or maybe I just haven't been searching as diligently as I did in previous years. The J39004-70 variant, be it Orient or Racer branded, remains extremely scarce, so I thought I ought to mention one that came up on eBay Italy last week as a 10-day auction.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Chronograph- ... 5718737655

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It was a low start (€1 Euro) no reserve auction, but a private listing - buyers identity hidden, which is often used as a cover for shill bidding. That apart the international shipping cost was a borderline extortionate €60 Euros. For those reasons (and the fact I already owned a NOS example), I didn't participate and merely added it to my eBay watching page - and promptly forgot about it !

The watch was in reasonably good used condition, with some loss of gold plating on the bracelet outer links. Another fault apparent in the seller's photos was that the red Tachymeter scale printing had almost completely faded.

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The auction ended yesterday evening with the J39004-70 selling for 116 Euros after 42 bids:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125718737655

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